mercyngrace Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 It was not intended to be offensive, just an observation that it seems to be an enviable position in which to be. To say as some have that it is a gross oversimplification is I believe, somewhat hyperbolic and I don't see that anything in my previous remark is far off the mark. If so, please tell me where.Actually Palerider, I agree with your point. We do send mixed messages. But that's because we have a mixed audience. We have some people who are at the stature of Eldad and Medad (Numbers 11) and can act contrary to policy or procedure because they are led by the Spirit. They are able to distinguish between the letter and the spirit of the law.Unfortunately, 68 out of every 70 have to be told what to do. And at least one of them will be highly offended that our Eldads and Medads don't conform and their angry response will range from backbiting in the foyer, to writing the Church office building, to leaving the church.Sigh.
tana Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 tana39:If a prophet told you to come cross the river with him would you?I apologize if I have belittled or endorsed a belittlement of the LDS religion. I tend to avoid these type of topics and am not sure what I was thinking by joining in. I think that this discussion has to ultimately end in a "What is faith" and "What exactly does a prompting of the Holy Ghost feel like" debate, which as we've seen in many previous threads of this theme, it is unresolvable.Anyway, since I've apparently gotten myself into this....I didn't leave the church 20 years ago because I couldn't follow the rules, I left all Deity based religion/philosophy because it became illogical to me. I am every bit as concerned for the welfare of my soul as anyone on the planet, and have continued to seek that knowledge which fills my needs.....Meaning, I served an honorable mission and countless times had/experienced what were described to me by mentors as *promptings of the spirit*.I still have those....as I sit here today. Only now I have them much stronger and more meaningful as I don't have the clutter in my mind as to what I considered to be inconsistencies in religious theory.Yes I do personally see a problem in trying to deduce what is true and what is false based on what I consider to be insufficient data input; On the Physical data/intelligence side I have my parents and elders telling me the church is true because they say so and they also have books that say so. On the spiritual side I have my parents and elders telling me that these feelings of bliss are the spirit confirming the church is true....But 6 billion other people have those same feelings saying something different....What's a guy to do but discard everything and look for his self....inside. The kingdom of heaven is within you.
consiglieri Posted January 21, 2011 Author Posted January 21, 2011 This is a gross (in both meanings of the word) oversimplification of the counsel, teachings, and guidance which faithful Latter-day Saints receive- and of the covenant they are asked to keep.You may characterize it as "gross" in as many ways as you like, but it is certainly correct.All the Best!--Consiglieri
nicolasconnault Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 I think there are mixed messages being sent:1. Always follow the prophet, he knows the way.No assertion is made that the prophet knows how you should budget your time and money, for example. Most of the time the prophets' teachings are too general to be the sole source of guidance in every day choices. First and foremost we are taught to follow the Spirit, while the prophets' teachings help us to recognise the Spirit's promptings as genuine because they are in harmony with their teachings.3. Even if he does tell you the wrong thing, God will make it turn out all right.Not sure where you get that message from. What sort of "wrong thing" do you expect the prophet to say, that requires God to "make it turn out all right"?5. If he makes a mistake you can't criticize him.Why would you want to? What sort of attitude leads a member to criticise his prophet? Is it constructive? Is it edifying? What difference will it make?6. He can criticize (correct) you in any area of life whether he is expert or not.Again, where do you get that message? When has the prophet corrected you personally, in an area in which he is no expert?7. Always ask the Lord if the prophet is correct in a teaching.I don't believe this is true. Do you imagine what kind of gruelling process you'd have to go through if you had to ask the Lord about the correctness of every single teaching from all our 15 prophets, every 6 months during general conference and every month when the Ensign is published? Besides, when is the last time you specifically asked the Lord whether a teaching of our prophet was correct? What we are asked to do is to listen to them in a prayerful manner, seeking confirmation from the Spirit as they speak that their words are true and come from God. 8. If you ask the Lord if the prophet is correct and the Lord tells you "No", you are out of the way and misguided.Why would the Lord tell you "No"? If, by some bizarre happen-stance, the prophet utters something erroneous that pertains to our salvation, would not the Lord inspire at least one of the other 14 prophets to correct him on the spot? The reason why you might be considered misguided and out of the way is because you seek to "steady the ark", not because the prophet is considered inerrant and worthy of adoration.
consiglieri Posted January 21, 2011 Author Posted January 21, 2011 I would like to take the opportunity to correct the course of this thread back to my original intent, which may not have been pellucid from the OP.I am speaking about prophesying in the sense of predicting future events.I understand this is not everything that a prophet is about, but it is an inherent part of the package, as indicated by the common root.Joseph Smith prophesied in that sense, as did many ancient prophets in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.Others of the twelve in this dispensation, such as Heber Kimball, also prophesied future events.Nobody in the church prophesies today.It seems that the usual trope to explain this dearth of prophecy is to talk about how prophets do more than just prophesy.I am suggesting that if we expect no errors in any attempted prophecies of this sort, we may have created a procrustean bed that no prophet can fit, including Joseph Smith, and we may have simultaneously created an environment in which nobody will ever dare attempt to prophesy again.Which I think is what we find in the current LDS Church.Any thoughts?All the Best!--Consiglieri
mercyngrace Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 I would like to take the opportunity to correct the course of this thread back to my original intent, which may not have been pellucid from the OP.Aw c'mon. The direction we were headed was just fine A zero tolerance environment quells growth and stifles necessary experience. God didn't create a zero tolerance environment...
consiglieri Posted January 22, 2011 Author Posted January 22, 2011 God didn't create a zero tolerance environment...But could God microwave a burrito so hot even He couldn't eat it?
nicolasconnault Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 Nobody in the church prophesies today.It seems that the usual trope to explain this dearth of prophecy is to talk about how prophets do more than just prophesy.In making this assumption you are making a common mistake, which is to think that all prophecies received by the prophets must be made public. I believe our prophets make lots of prophecies, but a prophecy is no use unless we can do something about it, and our Church organisation is designed to get things done based on revelation and prophecy. The prophecies received by our prophets are manifest in the inspired decisions they make, many of which you and most other members are not privy to.
consiglieri Posted January 22, 2011 Author Posted January 22, 2011 The prophecies received by our prophets are manifest in the inspired decisions they make, many of which you and most other members are not privy to.Such as only one set of earrings for women?Or changing missions from two-years to a year-and-a-half?All the Best!--Consiglieri
CV75 Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 I am suggesting that if we expect no errors in any attempted prophecies of this sort, we may have created a procrustean bed that no prophet can fit, including Joseph Smith, and we may have simultaneously created an environment in which nobody will ever dare attempt to prophesy again.RE: absence of predictions, I think we need some concrete examples of some recent events that, if publicly predicted, would have led to the fulfillment of God
mercyngrace Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 But could God microwave a burrito so hot even He couldn't eat it?Alright. When did elguanteloko hack Consiglieri's account?
nicolasconnault Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 Such as only one set of earrings for women?Or changing missions from two-years to a year-and-a-half?Being facetious doesn't magically win the argument, you know Let me know if you are still interested in seriously debating this point.
CA Steve Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 . The prophecies received by our prophets are manifest in the inspired decisions they make, many of which you and most other members are not privy to.If members are not privy to the prophecies you speak of how are they manifest?
nicolasconnault Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 If members are not privy to the prophecies you speak of how are they manifest?Prophets receive prophetic revelations (have you heard of the "prophetic priorities"?) that lead them to make decisions, which in turn affect the entire membership of the Church, which affects the rest of the world. So, to use an analogy, the prophecies are made manifest just as the foresight of a large ship's captain lead him to steer his ship and keep it on course: the ship doesn't get wrecked, sunk or lost and eventually reaches its destination, taking its precious human cargo to safety.
CA Steve Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 So, to use an analogy, the prophecies are made manifest just as the foresight of a large ship's captain lead him to steer his ship and keep it on course: the ship doesn't get wrecked, sunk or lost and eventually reaches its destination, taking its precious human cargo to safety.Or the GPS was functioning correctly.
consiglieri Posted January 22, 2011 Author Posted January 22, 2011 Prophets receive prophetic revelations (have you heard of the "prophetic priorities"?) that lead them to make decisions, which in turn affect the entire membership of the Church, which affects the rest of the world. This sounds like a desperate attempt to claim the prophets are receiving revelation in the complete absence of any evidence.At most, it describes a very different church from that restored by Joseph Smith.All the Best!--Consiglieri
nicolasconnault Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 This sounds like a desperate attempt to claim the prophets are receiving revelation in the complete absence of any evidence.At most, it describes a very different church from that restored by Joseph Smith.Your relish for hyperboles never ceases to astound me
erichard Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 This sounds like a desperate attempt to claim the prophets are receiving revelation in the complete absence of any evidence....Hi,If the church authorities accepted the Second Book of Commandments revelations it would be a completely different ballgame. The 2BC is full of future prophecies. If you question that the Lord might call a prophet independent of His Gentile church leadership, you should consider this article.Richard
Sky Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 This sounds like a desperate attempt to claim the prophets are receiving revelation in the complete absence of any evidence.At most, it describes a very different church from that restored by Joseph Smith.All the Best!--ConsiglieriWhat would our current prophets and apostles need to do in order to pass your test for being a prophet? Just because they don
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