Lamanites, Promised land, and Land of liberty

[livy111us]

Matt Roper, again, does an excellent job at refuting Rod Meldrums claims. He has also compiled a list of inspired Temple dedicatory prayers placing Lehites in certain areas.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=2&id=805

Cardston Alberta Temple

We beseech Thee, O Lord, that Thou wilt stay the hand of the destroyer among the descendants of Lehi, who reside in this land, and give unto them increasing virility and more abundant health, that they may not perish as a people, but that from this time forth they may increase in numbers and in strength and in influence, that all the great and glorious promises made concerning the descendants of Lehi, may be fulfilled in them; that they may grow in vigor of body and of mind, and above all in love for Thee and Thy Son, and increase in diligence and in faithfulness in keeping the commandments which have come to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that many of them may yet have the privilege of entering this holy house and receiving ordinances for themselves and their departed ancestors.

We pray Thee, O Father, to bless this land that it may be fruitful, that it may yield abundantly, and that all who dwell hereon may be prospered in righteousness.54

Mesa Arizona Temple

We beseech Thee, O Lord, that Thou wilt stay the hand of the destroyer among the descendants of Lehi who reside in this land and give unto them increasing virility and more abundant health, that they may not perish as a people but that from this time forth they may increase in numbers and in strength and in influence, that all the great and glorious promises made concerning the descendants of Lehi may be fulfilled in them; that they may grow in vigor of body and of mind, and above all in love for Thee and Thy Son, and increase in diligence and in faithfulness in keeping the commandments which have come to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that many of them may have the privilege of entering this holy house and receiving ordinances for themselves and their departed ancestors.55

Thou didst acknowledge the role of the Lamanite, especially in this temple, and numerous of the sons and daughters of Lehi have found in these sacred precincts peace, knowledge and solace to their souls.

Through this nearly half century millions of people have seen and have been caused to wonder and deliberate on the sacred purposes of such a structure. Through these gates and doors, by these sparkling pools, people have walked and loved and gloried. They have wept with joy. They have watched the shrubs and trees grow from spindling plantings to maturity, covered with green verdure and golden fruit to bring joy and gladness. . . .

We are grateful, our Father, that in these years have come to this temple numerous of Thy beloved Indian people of many tribes in their newly discovered way of life. Many children of Lehi have traveled long distances from other lands at great expense and sacrifice, especially in the borders of old Mexico, and numerous families have been welded together for eternity. . . .

We are grateful for the preservation of the sacred records from which the Book of Mormon came to the Lamanites and to us with all its glorious untrammeled truths, to show to the House of Israel ". . . that they may know the covenants of the Lord . . . and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." . . .

Our Father in heaven, our hearts go out to the Lamanites, Thy chosen of Israel. Give them listening ears and understanding hearts. Let them believe that they may commune with Thee and rid themselves of all "other gods" and superstitions and fears; let them grow mighty in Thy cause. Bless them that they may know Thy covenants, that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the mercies of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in His name, and that through their repentance they may be exalted.56

San Diego California Temple

This temple will be used by many of the sons and daughters of Father Lehi. We thank thee for their faithfulness. We thank thee for this day when thou art remembering thine ancient covenant in behalf of these thy children, from whose eyes the shackles of darkness are now falling. Bless the posterity of Lehi, we pray thee. Lift from their weary shoulders the burdens of the past. Grant unto those who walk in faith an enlarged understanding of things divine as well as blessings of temporal peace and prosperity.57

Snowflake Arizona Temple

We are grateful that this Thy house will be available to the sons and daughters of Lehi who live nearby. Let the scales of darkness fall from their eyes and bring a fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them. May this house become a hallowed sanctuary for many of these, our brothers and sisters.58

Colonia Ju

[brightpath]

The Lamanites are not in certain areas. The Lamanites are all Native Americans from North America to South America.

[livy111us]

The Lamanites are not in certain areas. The Lamanites are all Native Americans from North America to South America.

Anyone who was not a Nephite, qualified as a Lamanite. I agree with your statement.

[brightpath]

Anyone who was not a Nephite, qualified as a Lamanite. I agree with your statement.

You and I are in a minority then....

[44Foxtrot]

How can one assert that passages gleaned from prayers pronounced in public constitute credible evidence in support of otherwise unsupportable claims of historical fact?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You and I are in a minority then....

I think there are many that view this. I was just reading the other night to my kids in Alma. I think a very strong case can be made that this is indeed what the BoM is talking about esp towards the middle and end of the BoM. Nephite was a believer, Lamanite was a non believer. It no longer had to do with blood lines.

Let me find the verses.

Alma 45:10-14

10And these are the words: Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in four hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in unbelief.

11Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become extinct

[brightpath]

I think there are many that view this. I was just reading the other night to my kids in Alma. I think a very strong case can be made that this is indeed what the BoM is talking about esp towards the middle and end of the BoM. Nephite was a believer, Lamanite was a non believer. It no longer had to do with blood lines.

Let me find the verses.

Alma 45:10-14

Particularly in verse 12 and then in 14 we learn that the nephites will become a lamanite because they "shall dwindle in unbelief".

Thats right. The Lamanites and Nephites mixed throughout the years but eventually the Lamanites won out. They both are the Remnant of Jacob. The Native peoples of North and South America are the Lamanites and the seed of Joseph. They are receiving the BOM as promised by Christ in 3 Nephi 21 as a sign when the gathering is about to take place. They are finding out who they really are through the BOM, their record.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thats right. The Lamanites and Nephites mixed throughout the years but eventually the Lamanites won out. They both are the Remnant of Jacob. The Native peoples of North and South America are the Lamanites and the seed of Joseph. They are receiving the BOM as promised by Christ in 3 Nephi 21 as a sign when the gathering is about to take place. They are finding out who they really are through the BOM, their record.

You will notice in other verses that being a nephite or a lamanite one need not be of the seed of Jacob or even Lehi.

[brightpath]

You will notice in other verses that being a nephite or a lamanite one need not be of the seed of Jacob or even Lehi.

Explain, I'm puzzled.

[Bob Crockett]

I have pointed out in a separate thread that it is inconsistent for Matt Roper to discredit the various general authority statements pinning Old Cumorah to New Cumorah as mere speculative opinion, on the one hand, and rely upon temple dedicatory prayers which are far more vague and general to somehow argue for a Mesoamerican setting, on the other hand.

[livy111us]

Because dedicatory prayers aren't just someones opinion on a subject. These prayers are given under inspiration, which give them more credibility.

[Bob Crockett]

And general conference addresses are not inspired? And when they are reviewed and edited for CR they are nothing?

What portion of the Alberta prayer should I read to find a Mesosmerican LGT theory?

Roper is inconsistent. I would advocate basing my beliefs upon both and not cherry pick.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Explain, I'm puzzled.

I think before 2nd Nephi even starts we learn that one not need be a Lehite to be a Nephite. Consider Zoram. He was not even of the seed of Lehi yet latter his seed is counted as being Nephi's seed. Also consider latter when we meet up with the Mulekites. They most certainly were not Lehi's seed. Yet they incorporated themsleves and latter we called Nephites. So if those are indeed the case. What is the criteria for being a Nephite? From the vs in Alma I quoted it appears that a Nephite was any one that believed in Christ.

So what if there were other people living here that were not from Mulek or from Zoram. One could logically conclude that they would be a Nephite if they converted and beleived in God and Jesus. Similarly if one was not from either camp and was not a believer they would be labeled a Lamanite. Blood lines seem to have had nothing to do with those labels being attached to a person, esp latter on in the BoM.

[Nenahnezad]

The Lamanites are not in certain areas. The Lamanites are all Native Americans from North America to South America.

Very good. The Lamanites "went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land."

1 Nephi 12:20-21

And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land.

And I saw them gathered together in multitudes; and I saw wars and rumors of wars among them; and in wars and rumors of wars I saw many generations pass away.

How Temple Dedicatory Prayers in Mesa, San Diego, Cardston or for any temple in North, Central or South America conflicts with Meldrum's "claims" -as it was put- is beyond weird.

Many Lamanites could easily have gone south while others chased the Nephites to the north to destroy them. (Ether 1:1) Unless of course some imaginary lines kept them all restricted within the 500 sq miles of Mesoamerica for a 1,000 years until Mormon & Moroni died. The LGT is nonsense. It took 8 years to traverse Arabia, the size of Western Europe, but for 1,000 years later, no one had left an area the size of Utah. Including Nephite ships. It's time to think outside of the box.

[ERayR]

Very good. The Lamanites "went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land."

1 Nephi 12:20-21

And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land.

And I saw them gathered together in multitudes; and I saw wars and rumors of wars among them; and in wars and rumors of wars I saw many generations pass away.

How Temple Dedicatory Prayers in Mesa, San Diego, Cardston or for any temple in North, Central or South America conflicts with Meldrum's "claims" -as it was put- is beyond weird.

Many Lamanites could easily have gone south while others chased the Nephites to the north to destroy them. (Ether 1:1) Unless of course some imaginary lines kept them all restricted within the 500 sq miles of Mesoamerica for a 1,000 years until Mormon & Moroni died. The LGT is nonsense. It took 8 years to traverse Arabia, the size of Western Europe, but for 1,000 years later, no one had left an area the size of Utah. Including Nephite ships. It's time to think outside of the box.

You should read the Book of Mormon for comprehension before you start spouting such nonsense. Nobody I know hs ever claimed the Book of Mormon people didn't migrate beyond Mesoamerica and especially no LGT proponent. You are simply dragging red herrings.

[mapman]

Very good. The Lamanites "went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land."

1 Nephi 12:20-21

And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land.

And I saw them gathered together in multitudes; and I saw wars and rumors of wars among them; and in wars and rumors of wars I saw many generations pass away.

How Temple Dedicatory Prayers in Mesa, San Diego, Cardston or for any temple in North, Central or South America conflicts with Meldrum's "claims" -as it was put- is beyond weird.

Many Lamanites could easily have gone south while others chased the Nephites to the north to destroy them. (Ether 1:1) Unless of course some imaginary lines kept them all restricted within the 500 sq miles of Mesoamerica for a 1,000 years until Mormon & Moroni died. The LGT is nonsense. It took 8 years to traverse Arabia, the size of Western Europe, but for 1,000 years later, no one had left an area the size of Utah. Including Nephite ships. It's time to think outside of the box.

I think you understand both Meldrum and Mesoamerican proponents. Meldrum's theory can also be called a limited geography theory since he apparently believes that only Indians from the "Heartland" or the midwest United States are Lamanites. livy111us was responding to this. Mesoamerican theorists postulate that the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon took place within Mesoamerica, but I doubt you could find one that would say that Indians descended from Lehi are limited to Mesoamerica.

[brightpath]

I think before 2nd Nephi even starts we learn that one not need be a Lehite to be a Nephite. Consider Zoram. He was not even of the seed of Lehi yet latter his seed is counted as being Nephi's seed. Also consider latter when we meet up with the Mulekites. They most certainly were not Lehi's seed. Yet they incorporated themsleves and latter we called Nephites. So if those are indeed the case. What is the criteria for being a Nephite? From the vs in Alma I quoted it appears that a Nephite was any one that believed in Christ.

So what if there were other people living here that were not from Mulek or from Zoram. One could logically conclude that they would be a Nephite if they converted and beleived in God and Jesus. Similarly if one was not from either camp and was not a believer they would be labeled a Lamanite. Blood lines seem to have had nothing to do with those labels being attached to a person, esp latter on in the BoM.

Yes, but Zoram and the Mulekites were still Israelites. Mulek was from Judah and even though it doesn't state Zoram's bloodline, we can assume with confidence he was from Israel too. In reality the Lamanites of today have the tribes of Judah(Mulek) and Joseph(Lehi-Manasseh, Ishmael-Ephraim) running through there veins. There were no other people living in America. America was promised to Israel and not the Gentiles until they rejuected the gospel then God allowed the Gentiles to invade the Americas.

[brightpath]

I think you understand both Meldrum and Mesoamerican proponents. Meldrum's theory can also be called a limited geography theory since he apparently believes that only Indians from the "Heartland" or the midwest United States are Lamanites. livy111us was responding to this. Mesoamerican theorists postulate that the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon took place within Mesoamerica, but I doubt you could find one that would say that Indians descended from Lehi are limited to Mesoamerica.

Meldrum's theory is bogus and goes against what the previous prophets taught. All it is a made up theory based on a mans wisdom.

[Calm]

rely upon temple dedicatory prayers which are far more vague and general to somehow argue for a Mesoamerican setting, on the other hand.

Is he actually relying on the prayers to argue for a Mesoamerican setting or merely against limiting Lamanites to those of the "Heartland" who have the alleged DNA connection to Lehi?

[Calm]

even though it doesn't state Zoram's bloodline, we can assume with confidence he was from Israel too.

How? Are you claiming that the Jews didn't have any servants or slaves from other nations?

As far as the Mulekites go, it has been suggested in the past that the presence of Greek names in the Book of Mormon might indicate the presence of Greeks among the Mulekites. We have merely the barest fact that the Mulekites were understood to have traveled from the Old World---though without records there is no knowledge of how this occurred or who might have joined them (or left) during the journey. We do learn that their numbers are much, much larger than the Nephites (though not as many as the Lamanites, one has to wonder how this had occurred, weren't the numbers pretty evenly split to begin with?) even with all the wars that occurred among themselves (much like the Lamanites, again it makes one wonder how they managed to grow so much faster than the Nephites).

Couldn't the "exceedingly numerous" numbers be a result of nonJews joining with the Mulekites either during their journey or once they had arrived in the New World? Couldn't the corruption of their language to the point where there was no understanding between them and the Nephites be a result of 'contamination' from the language of others they had encountered on their journey or once they had arrived in the Western Hemisphere?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Couldn't the "exceedingly numerous" numbers be a result of nonJews joining with the Mulekites either during their journey or once they had arrived in the New World? Couldn't the corruption of their language to the point where there was no understanding between them and the Nephites be a result of 'contamination' from the language of others they had encountered on their journey or once they had arrived in the Western Hemisphere?

This is certainly something I have thought of. I think there are other plausible scenerios. But, this one for me, makes the most sense.

[brightpath]

How? Are you claiming that the Jews didn't have any servants or slaves from other nations?

As far as the Mulekites go, it has been suggested in the past that the presence of Greek names in the Book of Mormon might indicate the presence of Greeks among the Mulekites. We have merely the barest fact that the Mulekites were understood to have traveled from the Old World---though without records there is no knowledge of how this occurred or who might have joined them (or left) during the journey. We do learn that their numbers are much, much larger than the Nephites (though not as many as the Lamanites, one has to wonder how this had occurred, weren't the numbers pretty evenly split to begin with?) even with all the wars that occurred among themselves (much like the Lamanites, again it makes one wonder how they managed to grow so much faster than the Nephites).

Couldn't the "exceedingly numerous" numbers be a result of nonJews joining with the Mulekites either during their journey or once they had arrived in the New World? Couldn't the corruption of their language to the point where there was no understanding between them and the Nephites be a result of 'contamination' from the language of others they had encountered on their journey or once they had arrived in the Western Hemisphere?

God said the promised land was reserved for Israel. Mulek was the son of Zedekiah, King of the Jews. Mulek came to America with Israelites. Greeks are Gentiles so that would make God a liar. There were no Gentiles in America before Lehi and Mulek came. Again the promised land(America) was reserved for them.

[mapman]

God said the promised land was reserved for Israel. Mulek was the son of Zedekiah, King of the Jews. Mulek came to America with Israelites. Greeks are Gentiles so that would make God a liar. There were no Gentiles in America before Lehi and Mulek came. Again the promised land(America) was reserved for them.

Do you think that the Jaredites were Israelites?

[SkepticTheist]

Matt Roper, again, does an excellent job at refuting Rod Meldrums claims. He has also compiled a list of inspired Temple dedicatory prayers placing Lehites in certain areas.

http://maxwellinstit...22&num=2&id=805

So... Tyler. This is Ed. How's it going my friend? Its not that I disagree with Roper's claims on this point, and I also agree that I think that the dedicatory prayers were inspired. But don't you find it a bit methodologically a double-standard that in this case Roper is willing to call words of the prophets inspired that have geographical implications in this case for the seed of Lehi, but not in the cases where there is either implication for Cumorah, the Zelph incident or other sites, as Meldrum does? Interesting double-standard where Mesoamericanists are constantly harping on NY advocates for their use of historical statements. Not that I advocate for their use anymore..... Just an observation.

[Calm]

But don't you find it a bit methodologically a double-standard that in this case Roper is willing to call words of the prophets inspired that have geographical implications in this case for the seed of Lehi, but not in the cases where there is either implication for Cumorah, the Zelph incident or other sites, as Meldrum does? Interesting double-standard where Mesoamericanists are constantly harping on NY advocates for their use of historical statements.

I think before accusing of double standards, one needs to eliminate second and third hand reports since the dedicatory prayers would count as firsthand. Then there is the issue of whether the nonprayer comments were given in circumstances that would indicate those making them understood them to be inspired as they would have with the prayers.

IOW, you need to make sure that those making the comments see the comments as equivalent before assuming they are equivalent yourself and thus open to an accusation of doublestandard. Dedicatory prayers are commonly accepted as inspired among believers and are described as such by church leadership, can this be demonstrated for the other comments?