MDalby Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 What are some of the issues that LDS NT scholars have with Talmage's work Jesus the Christ?I know Hall has some concerns but I don't know the details.
Duncan Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 What are some of the issues that LDS NT scholars have with Talmage's work Jesus the Christ?I know Hall has some concerns but I don't know the details.I recall an article by Malcolm R. Thorp about the Victorian Jesus and James E. Talmage but i don't have the reference for it right now, I think Thorp places Elder Talmage in his context more so then critiquing it-as near as I can recollect anyways
LifeOnaPlate Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Check out Malcolm R. Thorp's article, "James E. Talmage and the Tradition of Victorian Lives of Jesus," Sunstone 12 (January, 1988), pp. 8-13. (.pdf here)
MDalby Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Check out Malcolm R. Thorp's article, "James E. Talmage and the Tradition of Victorian Lives of Jesus," Sunstone 12 (January, 1988), pp. 8-13. (.pdf here)Thank you!
Kevin Christensen Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 What are some of the issues that LDS NT scholars have with Talmage's work Jesus the Christ?I know Hall has some concerns but I don't know the details.It was written in 1913, and a lot has been learned since then. He basically relied on three famous "Victorian Lives of Jesus," plus some straight forward reading of the Book of Mormon and the History of the Church, and hence, on the sources, methods and scholarship of his sources. I first read it on my mission in 1974, and was very impressed, and read it a few times since, most recently a couple of weeks ago, and was far far less impressed. It's old scholarship, and it shows. New sources, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, more archeology, new methods, more proper contextualizing makes for many difference. Compare, for instance, his chapters on the Nativity stories with Margaret Barker's recent book, Christmas, The Original Story with Talmage's chapter, and you will get some idea of the a difference a better informed contextualization can make. Also, compare his chapter on the apostasy with the excellent Early Christians in Disarray book from FARMS. The reliance on, and intrusive flavor of anti-Catholic sources really stands out reading it now, especially in comparison with the newer FARMS researches. I notice that he claims that all revelation ceased from the time of John's departure to the arrival of Joseph Smith. That won't wash any more. See Richard Bushman's essay on the Visionary World of Joseph Smith, or sources such as the Shepherd of Hermas, or Carol Zaleski's Otherworld Journeys for numerous accounts of Medieval visions, as well as modern NDE accounts.I also noticed a footnote claiming that the Book of Mormon Land Bountiful was somewhere close to Panama, something that makes utter nonsense of the story of Limhi's explorers in the Book of Mormon, for instance. A lot has been learned about the Book of Mormon since 1913.I recall that Sunstone once ran an article on Talmage's reliance on the Victorian lives of Jesus. Elbert Peck commented that he was surprised that it was not more influential. I tried to find it on the Sunstone website, and couldn't.Kevin ChristensenPittsburgh, PA
MDalby Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 It was written in 1913, and a lot has been learned since then. He basically relied on three famous "Victorian Lives of Jesus," plus some straight forward reading of the Book of Mormon and the History of the Church, and hence, on the sources, methods and scholarship of his sources. I first read it on my mission in 1974, and was very impressed, and read it a few times since, most recently a couple of weeks ago, and was far far less impressed. It's old scholarship, and it shows. New sources, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, more archeology, new methods, more proper contextualizing makes for many difference. Compare, for instance, his chapters on the Nativity stories with Margaret Barker's recent book, Christmas, The Original Story with Talmage's chapter, and you will get some idea of the a difference a better informed contextualization can make. Also, compare his chapter on the apostasy with the excellent Early Christians in Disarray book from FARMS. The reliance on, and intrusive flavor of anti-Catholic sources really stands out reading it now, especially in comparison with the newer FARMS researches. I notice that he claims that all revelation ceased from the time of John's departure to the arrival of Joseph Smith. That won't wash any more. See Richard Bushman's essay on the Visionary World of Joseph Smith, or sources such as the Shepherd of Hermas, or Carol Zaleski's Otherworld Journeys for numerous accounts of Medieval visions, as well as modern NDE accounts.I also noticed a footnote claiming that the Book of Mormon Land Bountiful was somewhere close to Panama, something that makes utter nonsense of the story of Limhi's explorers in the Book of Mormon, for instance. A lot has been learned about the Book of Mormon since 1913.I recall that Sunstone once ran an article on Talmage's reliance on the Victorian lives of Jesus. Elbert Peck commented that he was surprised that it was not more influential. I tried to find it on the Sunstone website, and couldn't.Kevin ChristensenPittsburgh, PAThank you Kevin
cinepro Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It was written in 1913, and a lot has been learned since then. I wonder if the Church will ever "update" this view of Jesus' life in our lifetimes. The book is still in the Missionary Reference Library (the only Church-published books that are approved reading for all missionaries), and I can remember hearing how "Elder Talmage wrote the book in the Salt Lake Temple" on my mission, with the implication being that he was receiving help from supernatural forces in his research.
MDalby Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 I wonder if the Church will ever "update" this view of Jesus' life in our lifetimes. The book is still in the Missionary Reference Library (the only Church-published books that are approved reading for all missionaries), and I can remember hearing how "Elder Talmage wrote the book in the Salt Lake Temple" on my mission, with the implication being that he was receiving help from supernatural forces in his research.I think this was just to give Elder Talmage a room to focus on this concentrated study that had been requested for some time before he was a member of the Twelve.
Kevin Christensen Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks to those who provided links to the Sunstone article. However, in reading it again, it occurs to me that his survey of the Victorian scholars ought to be complimented by surveys and helpful perspectives on 20th century developments.Margaret Barker, looks back.http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/ReflectionsOnBiblicalStudies.pdfAs does Professor John McDade, in an essay I quote at length in my FAIR prophet study. Highly recommended.Jesus In Recent Research. Catholic Theological Association Conference 1998, published in The Month (December. 1998), and I hope the link works.www.lastseminary.com/jesus.../Jesus%20in%20Recent%20Research.pdfKevin ChristensenPittsburgh, PA
mapman Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Here's Kevin's last link: http://www.lastseminary.com/jesus-general/Jesus%20in%20Recent%20Research.pdf
Emerson Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 There is also this: https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V41N04_108.pdfI haven't read it, though, so I can't comment on its quality.
cinepro Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 I haven't read it, though, so I can't comment on its quality.On this board, you shouldn't let that stop you.
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