Is there room in the church for doubt?

[mapman]

The only scripture I am aware of that can be used to argue that doubt is a sin is D&C 58:18 (people are welcome to point out any other ones):

But if he repent not of his sins, which are ^aunbelief and blindness of ^bheart, let him take heed lest he ^cfall.

This doesn't actually mention doubt but rather unbelief. I think these are two different things. Unbelief is where you believe something to not be true while doubt is believing something might not be true. There is a difference. One is a rejection while the other isn't. I don't think that it is a sin for someone to doubt (though it is obviously not the most ideal state and slows spiritual growth) but I think that it is a sin if someone ceases to believe what God told them is true. We all have doubts, some more than others. One of the goals of the Church is to perfect the saints and one way to do that is to help those that are doubting.

[CV75]

faith is an assurance that something is true, but faith, or an assurance that something is true, isn't necessarily based on something that's true.

That's why we need to receive faith from God, so that our faith will be based on something God has told us is true, rather on what some Joe Blow down the street in a church building, or even Satan himself, has told us which is not the truth.

Alma taught that "faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true (Alma 32:21)." The things we hope for are those things we correctly anticipate or expect from Christ (Philippians 1: 20-21). This, with the idea from Hebrews 11:1, where "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," faith is then the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, which are true.

While it is common to use the word "faith" in the manner you described above, or to use "faith" and "belief" interchangeably, when it comes down to what is really important, this is an incorrect use. As you said, one can believe something that is untrue, but he cannot exercise faith in it because that which Christ delivers, and that which we anticipate from Him, cannot come from an incorrect principle. This is why it is good, when in a quandary, to really prayerfully consider what one has faith in versus what one believes, and not allow belief to interfere with faith.

I agree that our faith must be based on something God has told us is true, such as the the inheritance spoken of in Ephesians 1: 11-14, and that this can only be preached, revealed, or made evident to the world and to the saints through His authorized servants (Romans 10), Joseph Smith being the first of this dispensation.

[Libs]

She has already left the Church because she claims there is no room for doubt in the Church. I think there is plenty of room for doubt in the Church. But there is doubt and there is doubt. If you have lost your testimony to such a degree that you no longer believe that any of it is true, then I suppose you will be doing yourself and the Church a favor by leaving the Church.

That's not why I left the church. I lost my testimony of Joseph Smith. That's why I left. In retrospect, I don't think I ever had a testimony of Joseph Smith. My faith in the church came from an experience I had with the Book of Mormon.

This matter of staying in the church while holding doubts, is not really something I had consciously thought about, until I read Bro. Petersen's testimony. It occurred to me that I just sort of knew I could not stay, while holding doubts. I got a lot of cues in that direction, mainly from LDS testimonies and other comments. I guess that's why I found Bro. Petersen's testimony kind of refreshing.

[zerinus]

That's not why I left the church. I lost my testimony of Joseph Smith. That's why I left. In retrospect, I don't think I ever had a testimony of Joseph Smith. My faith in the church came from an experience I had with the Book of Mormon.

It was Joseph Smith who produced the Book of Mormon; so if you ever had any kind of testimony of the Book of Mormon, then that means that you had a testimony of Joseph Smith.

This matter of staying in the church while holding doubts, is not really something I had consciously thought about, until I read Bro. Petersen's testimony. It occurred to me that I just sort of knew I could not stay, while holding doubts. I got a lot of cues in that direction, mainly from LDS testimonies and other comments. I guess that's why I found Bro. Petersen's testimony kind of refreshing.

Not everyone in the Church is blessed with the gift of a strong testimony; but they are blessed with the gift or ability to believe in the testimony of others.

[TAO]

The thing is, Tao, I believe and have faith in God and Jesus Christ.

I lost faith in Joseph Smith.

Yes, I know you have faith in God and Jesus Christ.

It isn't really my area to judge why you lost your trust in Joseph and the Book of Mormon. I haven't lived your life.

But I do know that the Book of Mormon was true, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet. It is one of the few things I have received a sure witness on. I am never going to deny that witness - instead, I am going to look to God to show me his mind concerning the questions I have. I'm not going to let critics make the questions for me; I'm not going to let their claims make me doubt.

[paulpatter]

Why would a person put their faith in something they seriously doubted?

I have been a LDS for a l-o-n-g time. During those decades I have seen the faith of even stalwart members undergo periods of serious doubt, as has my own. Maintaining a testimony is a "never finished" work. J. Reuben Clark, in a general conference address given when he was--as I recall--in his eighties, said something like this (paraphrasing): "I pray that I can be faithful to the end."

[Sky]

That's not why I left the church. I lost my testimony of Joseph Smith. That's why I left. In retrospect, I don't think I ever had a testimony of Joseph Smith. My faith in the church came from an experience I had with the Book of Mormon.

No offense Libs, but I find it kind of odd that you had faith from an experience with the Book of Mormon, but yet you never had a testimony of Joseph Smith. Normally, the two tend to go hand in hand. If you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, you will have a testimony of Joseph Smith. And if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, a testimony of Jesus Christ naturally tends to follow.

[Libs]

No offense Libs, but I find it kind of odd that you had faith from an experience with the Book of Mormon, but yet you never had a testimony of Joseph Smith. Normally, the two tend to go hand in hand. If you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, you will have a testimony of Joseph Smith. And if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, a testimony of Jesus Christ naturally tends to follow.

Yes, I know it sounds odd. I'm not saying I never thought I had a testimony of Joseph as a prophet. I did assume it, from my experience with the Book of Mormon. But, I never had a direct revelation of it, as I "thought" I had with the Book of Mormon. (Kind of hard to explain). I didn't really even know much about Joseph Smith, until a few years after I joined the church. I knew about the First Vision and that sort of thing, but I really had no idea he was the one who started polygamy, or anything about that. I thought Brigham Young had started the polygamous era of the church. Just didn't know much about church history, at all, for quite some time. It was kind of shocking to learn some of it. Created a lot of doubts in me about Joseph. Tore me up, really, for a long time, because I loved the church.

[Avatar4321]

How can you bear testimony to anything you don't know?

Obviously, there is room in the Church for people who don't know. But that's because we are trying to help people learn for themselves. (Though thinking about it, unless you were baptized at an age before you truly understood this, how could you honestly stand to be baptized without knowing?

However, I don't think there is room for doubt in the Church. Any doubt must flee away. Even if we don't know, we can act in faith so that we can learn. If we doubt, then we can't learn.

[Libs]

How can you bear testimony to anything you don't know?

You can't. But, how about if you "thought" you knew and then discovered you didn't?

Obviously, there is room in the Church for people who don't know. But that's because we are trying to help people learn for themselves. (Though thinking about it, unless you were baptized at an age before you truly understood this, how could you honestly stand to be baptized without knowing?

You think you know and then discover you don't...that's how.

However, I don't think there is room for doubt in the Church. Any doubt must flee away. Even if we don't know, we can act in faith so that we can learn. If we doubt, then we can't learn.

Honestly, I think it's the other way around. People who think they already know, are not really open to learning, IMO. People who admit they don't know are open and teachable.

[zerinus]

Honestly, I think it's the other way around. People who think they already know, are not really open to learning, IMO. People who admit they don't know are open and teachable.

"Know" what? If I said that I know that my name is xxxxx, it doesn't mean that I am not "open to learning". It means that that is what my name is. If I said that I know what the stars are made of, then I wouldn't be telling the truth, because I don't really know what the stars are made of, although I am aware of the conjectures made by some astronomers. The question here centers on whether it is possible for someone to "know" for sure whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not; or whether anybody making such a claim must inevitably be lying, because it is inherently impossible for anyone to "know". If it is indeed possible for someone to know whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not, and somebody claims to have such a knowledge, it doesn't mean that they are not "open to learning". It simply means that that is something that they know. And I can assure you that it is something that is possible to know.