Is there room in the church for doubt?

[TAO]

Which is kind of interesting, because the question with which I started this thread had to do with whether or not someone can be a member of the LDS Church, without "knowing" that it's true.

Libs, someone may be a member and a doubter, but God sees their heart as well as anyone's. And oh, how he wishes they turned to him.

That is the thing really... church membership isn't really the concern. A testimony is. A testimony is important. And for a strong testimony, you must know.

[Libs]

Howdy folks

[Libs]

Libs, someone may be a member and a doubter, but God sees their heart as well as anyone's. And oh, how he wishes they turned to him.

That is the thing really... church membership isn't really the concern. A testimony is. A testimony is important. And for a strong testimony, you must know.

The thing is, Tao, I believe and have faith in God and Jesus Christ.

I lost faith in Joseph Smith.

[zerinus]

I am reasonably certain that you do sincerely believe in the Church.

It is more than that actually. I know that the Church is true.

[CV75]

I lost faith in Joseph Smith.

Even Joseph Smith himself would say that you cannot have saving faith in him because he is imperfect, and that you can only have faith in Jesus Christ, and to have faith in that which Christ did through him. If he ever said, "Have faith in me," it had to do with having faith in the truth he spoke, in the keys he exercised, but not in him as a person--he could do nothing to save us. Even though it is said that he "has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it," we cannot exercise saving faith in him. Whatever he did, he did by the grace of God despite his imperfections, and by grace God saves those who accept the restored truth that was revealed through Joseph Smith.

[44Foxtrot]

It is more than that actually. I know that the Church is true.

As I have shown, according to any reasonable definition of the word "knowledge", objective evidence is a requirement. Therefore, by definition, you in fact do not "know" that the Church is true.

You can have a deep and sincere belief in the Church, but without objective evidence supporting the central truth claims of the Church you cannot know it is true.

This one simple concept has been the point of the whole thread.

Has Bro. Petersen's bravery been entirely in vain?

[zerinus]

Even Joseph Smith himself would say that you cannot have saving faith in him because he is imperfect, and that you can only have faith in Jesus Christ, and to have faith in that which Christ did through him. If he ever said, "Have faith in me," it had to do with having faith in the truth he spoke, in the keys he exercised, but not in him as a person--he could do nothing to save us. Even though it is said that he "has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it," we cannot exercise saving faith in him. Whatever he did, he did by the grace of God despite his imperfections, and by grace God saves those who accept the restored truth that was revealed through Joseph Smith.

You certainly do need faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord to be a Mormon. If she has lost that, then she has lost a lot:

Matthew 10

:

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

John 13

:

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Anyone who reject Joseph Smith reject Jesus Christ who sent him. You cannot be saved by by willfully and knowingly rejecting Joseph Smith.

[zerinus]

As I have shown, according to any reasonable definition of the word "knowledge", objective evidence is a requirement. Therefore, by definition, you in fact do not "know" that the Church is true.

You can have a deep and sincere belief in the Church, but without objective evidence supporting the central truth claims of the Church you cannot know it is true.

This one simple concept has been the point of the whole thread.

Has Bro. Petersen's bravery been entirely in vain?

You seem to think how my mind works better than I do. I don't think so. I know when I am knowing something and when I am believing something; and I know that the Church is true.

[44Foxtrot]

You seem to think how my mind works better than I do. I don't think so. I know when I am knowing something and when I am believing something; and I know that the Church is true.

zerinus,

As a scientist, I tend to assess truth claims in terms of their associated probabilities.

This is in stark contrast to LDS apologists, who prefer to deal in possibilities.

Considering the probabilities when making decisions leads to much better outcomes than thinking in terms of possibilities.

I only mention this because the data show the probability to be greater than 50% that at some point in the future you will not be writing such declarations of knowledge regarding the truthfulness of the Church.

Again, good luck.

[CV75]

You certainly do need faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord to be a Mormon.

Anyone who reject Joseph Smith reject Jesus Christ who sent him. You cannot be saved by by willfully and knowingly rejecting Joseph Smith.

To be a Mormon, you need to have faith in Jesus Christ, period. Accepting Joseph Smith as his prophet is an outgrowth of that faith in Christ and is very different from having faith IN Joseph Smith himself. Joseph Smith was a flawed mortal and unable to save anyone, which is why that kind of faith is reserved for God. As a flawed mortal, Joseph Smith served God and restored the church, keys, doctrines, covenants, etc. -- nothing to sneeze at, but he did it all through faith in Christ alone to save us, and had no such faith in himself independent of his own utter reliance on Christ. As flawed as he was (and he would be the first to say he was flawed), he did more than any other (save Jesus) for the salvation of mankind. "He lived great and died great in the eyes of God and his people," and merits every accolade given him in scripture and hymn.

Losing faith in what Christ has provided through Joseph Smith because of a flaw in Joseph Smith is a sign of misplaced expectations of Joseph Smith resulting from a lack or loss of faith in Christ, and not so much the absence of unmerited faith in Joseph Smith.

Accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet is not a function of faith in him, but rather in Christ. That is why accepting him is accepting Christ who sent him. So of course salvation is lost by willfully and knowingly rejecting Joseph Smith, but it is lost by Christ's merits, not Joseph Smith's.

[zerinus]

To be a Mormon, you need to have faith in Jesus Christ, period. Accepting Joseph Smith as his prophet is an outgrowth of that faith in Christ and is very different from having faith IN Joseph Smith himself. . . .

"Having faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord" is another way of saying "believing in him as a prophet sent by Jesus Christ." Maybe you need to polish your English a bit more.

[Ahab]

"Having faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord" is another way of saying "believing in him as a prophet sent by Jesus Christ." Maybe you need to polish your English a bit more.

The real question is WHY should anyone have faith, at all... either in Joseph Smith, or Jesus Christ, or God (our Father in heaven), or anyone else, or anything ???

WHY ???

Suppose you received a direct and very personal revelation from God, himself, who would be telling you that Jesus is his son, in whom he is well pleased, while telling you to listen to him. And then suppose Jesus Christ told you something, while promoting the idea that you should have faith in him, AND in our Father in heaven, while telling you that HE is the Way, the Truth,and the Life, and that nobody can come to the Father except through him, because he was appointed by our Father to be your Savior, as well as the Savior of everyone else who has fallen through Adam and Eve.

Okay, so, now what? Why should you or any of the rest of us have faith in them, or what they say?

WHY ???

My answer to that is: Well, I'm sure they know a heck of a lot more than I do, and I don't see any good reason for why not.

[DarkScythe]

without doubt there is no growth.

[Ahab]

without doubt there is no growth.

You grow by overcoming doubt. All doubt does is make you "unsure" about something, and when you are sure, you have faith.

[CV75]

Having faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord" is another way of saying "believing in him as a prophet sent by Jesus Christ."

Perhaps in casual parlance, but when someone is in a crisis of faith (or beleif), an undserstanding of the the actual, meaningful distinction between "beleif" and "faith" is extremely significant, and I have addressed this in previous posts on this thread.

[zerinus]

The real question is WHY should anyone have faith, at all... either in Joseph Smith, or Jesus Christ, or God (our Father in heaven), or anyone else, or anything ???

WHY ???

Suppose you received a direct and very personal revelation from God, himself, who would be telling you that Jesus is his son, in whom he is well pleased, while telling you to listen to him. And then suppose Jesus Christ told you something, while promoting the idea that you should have faith in him, AND in our Father in heaven, while telling you that HE is the Way, the Truth,and the Life, and that nobody can come to the Father except through him, because he was appointed by our Father to be your Savior, as well as the Savior of everyone else who has fallen through Adam and Eve.

Okay, so, now what? Why should you or any of the rest of us have faith in them, or what they say?

WHY ???

My answer to that is: Well, I'm sure they know a heck of a lot more than I do, and I don't see any good reason for why not.

I don't see that as being the issue here, or at least not the one that I was responding to. I was responding to a comment made to a comment by Libs, who claimed to have lost her faith in Joseph Smith, and regained it in Jesus Christ. I maintain that that is impossible. That is like saying that you lost my faith in Peter and John, and regained in Jesus Christ.

[zerinus]

Personal comment deleted.

[CV75]

She also appears to be very impressionable, and is readily influenced by the unlikeliest of people.

This is a good reason to develop an understanding of the differences between belief and faith, and also a good reason to stick to principles rather than personalities on a discussion board.

[Libs]

and also a good reason to stick to principles rather than personalities on a discussion board.

Thank you...I agree.

[ELF1024]

If there is no room for doubt in the Church, than it ceases to be useful.

Church is a hospital for sinners, not a party for the perfected.

[Libs]

Even Joseph Smith himself would say that you cannot have saving faith in him because he is imperfect, and that you can only have faith in Jesus Christ, and to have faith in that which Christ did through him. If he ever said, "Have faith in me," it had to do with having faith in the truth he spoke, in the keys he exercised, but not in him as a person--he could do nothing to save us. Even though it is said that he "has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it," we cannot exercise saving faith in him. Whatever he did, he did by the grace of God despite his imperfections, and by grace God saves those who accept the restored truth that was revealed through Joseph Smith.

Yes, I understand what you're saying, but I wasn't really talking about "saving faith". I simply meant that I no longer believed that Joseph had special knowledge given to him through Christ.

I have had a degree of faith in Christ all of my life. I came into the LDS Church with that faith and left with it. My waning belief in Joseph Smith didn't really affect my faith in Christ, at all.

[zerinus]

If there is no room for doubt in the Church, than it ceases to be useful.

Church is a hospital for sinners, not a party for the perfected.

She has already left the Church because she claims there is no room for doubt in the Church. I think there is plenty of room for doubt in the Church. But there is doubt and there is doubt. If you have lost your testimony to such a degree that you no longer believe that any of it is true, then I suppose you will be doing yourself and the Church a favor by leaving the Church.

[Ahab]

Yes, I understand what you're saying, but I wasn't really talking about "saving faith". I simply meant that I no longer believed that Joseph had special knowledge given to him through Christ.

Do you understand what we're telling you about where our faith in Joseph Smith really comes from?

Speaking personally, about me, I didn't just up and decide to start believing what Joseph Smith said about something. I asked God if he (God) inspired what Joseph Smith said, and God told me it was, along with how I should understand what he said. Thus, my faith in what Joseph Smith said came from God, rather than from Joseph Smith, even though Joseph Smith was the one who said what God inspired him to say.

I have had a degree of faith in Christ all of my life. I came into the LDS Church with that faith and left with it. My waning belief in Joseph Smith didn't really affect my faith in Christ, at all.

In a sense, it really did, Libby. Joseph Smith was a messenger of Christ, and by rejecting that message you rejected what Christ was saying through Jospeh Smith.

[CV75]

a degree of faith in Christ

Faith grows as the knowledge, acceptance and application of truth grow, not as a knowledge of what we label facts and circumstances grow.

From God's point of view, mortally-derived facts and circumstances are misconstrued, misrepresented and misevaluated by human perception. In a fallen world our fallen perceptions and evaluations suffice for the tasks of survival and even satisfying, thriving and excelling. But they do not work for spiritual salvation. This is why faith is necessarily a gift from God and not a product of our own making, as belief and doubt are. How this plays into students losing faith through study reflects the idea that no matter how noble the pursuit, if it is not of God it will not help them retain or endure the things of God. Once someone becomes sensitive to what they have lost, they will repent and rally and return to faith.

[Ahab]

Faith grows as the knowledge, acceptance and application of truth grow, not as a knowledge of what we label facts and circumstances grow.

From God's point of view, mortally-derived facts and circumstances are misconstrued, misrepresented and misevaluated by human perception. In a fallen world our fallen perceptions and evaluations suffice for the tasks of survival and even satisfying, thriving and excelling. But they do not work for spiritual salvation. This is why faith is necessarily a gift from God and not a product of our own making, as belief and doubt are. How this plays into students losing faith through study reflects the idea that no matter how noble the pursuit, if it is not of God it will not help them retain or endure the things of God. Once someone becomes sensitive to what they have lost, they will repent and rally and return to faith.

Thank you for the good thoughts I see in your post, but I'd like to try to clear up something that may be perceived as a misconception.

Faith is simply a word for what it is that makes someone "sure" about something, such that when someone is sure about something, what they have is faith.

... BUT, the fact that someone is "sure" about something doesn't mean that what they are "sure" about is true.

In other words, faith is an assurance that something is true, but faith, or an assurance that something is true, isn't necessarily based on something that's true.

For example, some people are "sure" that Joseph Smith was NOT a true prophet of God, but their faith on that issue (which is what makes them "sure" about that idea) is NOT based on something that is true. Rather, it's based on some thought they've accepted from someone who has not told them the truth, as if that person has told the truth, when they really didn't.

That's why we need to receive faith from God, so that our faith will be based on something God has told us is true, rather on what some Joe Blow down the street in a church building, or even Satan himself, has told us which is not the truth.