geological evidence disproving global flood (noah)

[semlogo]

The story of the flood is not what is important, it is my trust in scripture, my trust in the words and teachings of modern prophets, and a desire to know that doctrine is unchanging. These all are important to my salvation.

A non-global flood does put into question the idea of the baptism of the earth. However, I'm not sure that's really an important doctrine. Now, I'm not one of those people who uses the "that's not official doctrine" get out of jail free card. I think it's quite possible to have official doctrine that is not inspired or just wrong. We see through a glass darkly.

[ElfLord]

Well lets compare the Myths...

http://ksuweb.kennes...Comparison.html

We know that some scribes got the numbers wrong when we compare Kings and Chronicles King Solomons numbers (horses, footmen) get inflated by a factor of ten in most instances.

Perhaps the 40 days and 40 nights was actually 14 days instead?

[ELF1024]

The story of the flood is not what is important, it is my trust in scripture, my trust in the words and teachings of modern prophets, and a desire to know that doctrine is unchanging. These all are important to my salvation.

If you on a search for inerrant scripture, I'm sorry, but your out of luck. There is no such thing.

[dougtheavenger]

if the fact that the flood myth is found in many historical traditions besides the old testament:

http://en.wikipedia....%28mythology%29

isnt enough to convince you that the noah's ark story is just another implementation of the myth, there is now scientific proof that the global flood/deluge from the story of noah's ark never happened, thanks to the greenland ice sheet project:

The GISP2 Ice Core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global, by Paul H. Seely

but then again, it could just be satan hijacking science to get people to sin, become atheists and destroy the constitution...

Mainstream DNA science supports the story of Noah.

Mainstream science holds that "Mitochondrial Eve" lived 100K years ago and the same mainstream believes that Y-chromosome "Adam" lived only 60K years ago. That is to says that we all trace our maternal ancestry to a single woman who lived 100K years ago and we all can trace our paternal ancestry to a single man who lived 60K years ago. Since they use biblical terms they shoud use them correctly. Our common male ancestor is a Y-chromosome Noah, not an Adam. Obviously, Mitochondrial Eve had an Adam in her day and we descend from him just as we descend from her. However, much later in human history, there was a genetic bottleneck in which all male lines of descent became extinct except one. This corresponds to the Biblical story of Noah and the Arc.

[rodheadlee]

By that logic, I would take it that you believe in the actual existence of Santa Claus? I mean, there are so many cultures that venerate the myth of Santa Claus that he must be true, right?

Just because a lot of people believe in a myth doesn't make it a fact.

There is no Santa Claus? Say it ain't so.

[thesometimesaint]

dougtheavenger:

As the genetic Eve predates the biblical Eve by at least 14 times the number of years. "Houston we have a problem".

[blackstrap]

The vast majority of fossils found in a relatively intact form SHOUT flood depositing with rapid burial regardless of local or regional or global cause. Bone beds 100s of miles long indicate massive flooding sometime in the past. Bone piles of scores of animals not normally found together that now lay on high elevations indicate catastrophic events involving water . One can argue time-lines and whether of not there was a single global flood but the evidence of flooding everywhere on the earth at some point is extremely clear.

[Rob Osborn]

The vast majority of fossils found in a relatively intact form SHOUT flood depositing with rapid burial regardless of local or regional or global cause. Bone beds 100s of miles long indicate massive flooding sometime in the past. Bone piles of scores of animals not normally found together that now lay on high elevations indicate catastrophic events involving water . One can argue time-lines and whether of not there was a single global flood but the evidence of flooding everywhere on the earth at some point is extremely clear.

It is quite ironic that geologists will all agree that at some point in time pretty much all different parts of the earth were submerged under water just.... not all at the same time.

I also find it ironic that even though there is massive evidence of past catastrophic flood deposits, many do not agree that it could have happened in any historical context involving our race.

I often wonder how one can not see the evidence of a past geologic age where catastrophe was the defining element. Our geologic evidence points to a very disruptive and catastrophic past of the which is just not happening today.

[Tarski]

dougtheavenger:

As the genetic Eve predates the biblical Eve by at least 14 times the number of years. "Houston we have a problem".

Not only that, genetic eve isn't special.

[nickleus]

This reminds me of the story of "the lost squadron", a group of planes including p-38's had to make an emergency landing on Greenland during WW2. The crews were rescued but the planes remained. Then, some 50 years later they went in search of these rare warbirds only to not find them where they thought. After months and months of searching they finally found them a mile away from where they landed originally and also, get this- under 263' of ice! Let me repeat that- under two hundred and sixty three feet of ice! They ended up melting through the ice with a special tool and then took the plane apart and carried it to the surface in pieces where it hauled off and restored at a very high price. Here-

http://www.p38assn.o...rl-recovery.htm

Now certainly there are going to be those who claim that the planes were in an area where snow deposits quickly, but I ask this- how can we be sure just how fast snow did or did not fall over the period of thousands of years?

The greenland ice cores prove nothing other than it snows there and has for quite some time.

if you read the pdf, the author addresses this specifically.

[semlogo]

Mainstream DNA science supports the story of Noah.

Mainstream science holds that "Mitochondrial Eve" lived 100K years ago and the same mainstream believes that Y-chromosome "Adam" lived only 60K years ago. That is to says that we all trace our maternal ancestry to a single woman who lived 100K years ago and we all can trace our paternal ancestry to a single man who lived 60K years ago. Since they use biblical terms they shoud use them correctly. Our common male ancestor is a Y-chromosome Noah, not an Adam. Obviously, Mitochondrial Eve had an Adam in her day and we descend from him just as we descend from her. However, much later in human history, there was a genetic bottleneck in which all male lines of descent became extinct except one. This corresponds to the Biblical story of Noah and the Arc.

There isn't a facepalm big enough.

[semlogo]

The vast majority of fossils found in a relatively intact form SHOUT flood depositing with rapid burial regardless of local or regional or global cause. Bone beds 100s of miles long indicate massive flooding sometime in the past. Bone piles of scores of animals not normally found together that now lay on high elevations indicate catastrophic events involving water . One can argue time-lines and whether of not there was a single global flood but the evidence of flooding everywhere on the earth at some point is extremely clear.

CFR

[Rob Osborn]

if you read the pdf, the author addresses this specifically.

Yes I saw that, it's quite the feeble attempt too. They chalk it up this only because they found an actual plane at that depth. A much different story had there been no plane found at that depth. Ice core measurements and dating have a myriad of issues of the which the Lost Squadron clearly points out.

Itr makes me laugh to see the feeble excuses they come up with.

[nickleus]

Mainstream DNA science supports the story of Noah.

Mainstream science holds that "Mitochondrial Eve" lived 100K years ago and the same mainstream believes that Y-chromosome "Adam" lived only 60K years ago. That is to says that we all trace our maternal ancestry to a single woman who lived 100K years ago and we all can trace our paternal ancestry to a single man who lived 60K years ago. Since they use biblical terms they shoud use them correctly. Our common male ancestor is a Y-chromosome Noah, not an Adam. Obviously, Mitochondrial Eve had an Adam in her day and we descend from him just as we descend from her. However, much later in human history, there was a genetic bottleneck in which all male lines of descent became extinct except one. This corresponds to the Biblical story of Noah and the Arc.

mtdna (mitochondrial dna) eve is our maternal mrca (most recent common ancestor. NOT the first woman to ever live; a common misconception). your line of thinking would make noah's wife mitochondrial eve, not the african woman determined by the scientific community. thus, it DOESNT support the story of noah.

[nickleus]

Yes I saw that, it's quite the feeble attempt too. They chalk it up this only because they found an actual plane at that depth. A much different story had there been no plane found at that depth. Ice core measurements and dating have a myriad of issues of the which the Lost Squadron clearly points out.

Itr makes me laugh to see the feeble excuses they come up with.

he successfully refutes it scientifically based on math and measurements.

[nickleus]

Not only that, genetic eve isn't special.

note: we dont know who genetic eve was. mitochondrial eve is our *most recent* *common maternal ancestor*, not the first woman to ever have lived.

[ElfLord]

note: we dont know who genetic eve was. mitochondrial eve is our *most recent* *common maternal ancestor*, not the first woman to ever have lived.

Don't you mean the first monkey to have ever lived?

[ElfLord]

he successfully refutes it scientifically based on math and measurements.

And assumptions not supported by reality or the text...

Recently an ice core nearly two miles long has been extracted

from the Greenland ice sheet.

The first 110,000 annual layers of snow in that ice core (GISP2)

have been visually counted

and corroborated by two to three different and independent

methods as well as by correlation

with volcanic eruptions and other datable events. Since the ice

sheet would have floated away

in the event of a global flood, the ice core is strong evidence

that there was no global flood

any time in the last 110,000 years.

He's following the old bath tub model flood scenario. He needs to think ouside the box.

How many animals floated away on those icebergs?

There are a dozen or so important Greenland

ice cores, but the latest and greatest

are GRIP (Greenland Ice Project) and GISP2

(Greenland Ice Sheet Project 2), which were

extracted at the Summit where the ice rarely

melts.

Um... how do they know that? Or is this another assumption being made by the "scientists"? What of all the global warming events that have happend over the past 10000 years?

I like all his Hummm... hawwing... "could of been", "would have been", "I supposen"

[Tarski]

note: we dont know who genetic eve was. mitochondrial eve is our *most recent* *common maternal ancestor*, not the first woman to ever have lived.

Of course, and again, nothing special. We have many other common ancestors which were human and countless that were not, and of course, this "eve's" mother was also our common ancestor and both were almost certainly fully human. None of this supports anything biblical at all.

[ELF1024]

note: we dont know who genetic eve was. mitochondrial eve is our *most recent* *common maternal ancestor*, not the first woman to ever have lived.

Wasn't mitochondrial eve a cylon?

Kidding, now returning you to your regular scheduled posts...

[ElfLord]

Wasn't mitochondrial eve a cylon?

Kidding, now returning you to your regular scheduled posts...

And hear I thought she was one of these...

[nickleus]

Of course, and again, nothing special. We have many other common ancestors which were human and countless that were not, and of course, this "eve's" mother was also our common ancestor and both were almost certainly fully human. None of this supports anything biblical at all.

i was just making a distinction between "common ancestor" and "*most recent* common ancestor" (mrca). just to elaborate for those who havent heard this before, mitochondrial eve is a generic term given to the most recent common female ancestor. this can change over time as new evidence comes in, but right now it is a woman from africa dated to around 200,000 years Before Present (BP = 1950)

elflord, i assume your "monkey" comment was in jest, but in case not, watch this video:

[maupayman]

That it is found in so many different traditions supports that there was some sort of a flood.

Just like vampires and witches right?

[Rob Osborn]

he successfully refutes it scientifically based on math and measurements.

Mere conjecture. I could state quite the opposite-

Scientists have successfully refuted the counting process of ice cores as anything precise Ice cores have been proven to be the least reliable method for dating because of the inherent problems involved.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html