lds apologist response to joseph f smith's testimony in reed smoot trial

[Ceeboo]

LOL

Well if 6 ft 2 at 216 lbs with 12% body fat is your idea of little then OK.

Huh!

You must have descended from a most muscular, tall, confident, and humble rock indeed.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Pahoran]

Do you actually disagree with his assertion?

Yes.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LeSellers]

on my mission in 1996, russell nelson came to see us and told us that the first assignment an apostle gets is to go to the temple and pray and fast and meditate until jesus christ reveals himself to them. i struggle to find his special witness about jesus christ revealing himself to nelson in the temple, on lds.org...

So, ipso facto, he was lying "on [your] mission"?

Sorry, it jes' doan work thataway.

Lehi

[nickleus]

BRM basically said that he had seen Jesus.

note your use of the word "basically". did he say "i have seen jesus"? nope.

joseph smith didnt "basically" say he'd seen jesus...

there is no continuing prophetic/apostolic testimony of seeing jesus and having first-hand, visual knowledge of him...

thus these "special witnesses of the name of jesus christ" have no more special, pretend, emotional/psychological witnesses than any other member of the church... a witness that is no different than the feeling you get while watching an emotional movie or anything real-seeming that your mind can create while dreaming...

[Jaybear]

Yes.

Regards,

Pahoran

Which component?

[Tarski]

Huh!

You must have descended from a most muscular, tall, confident, and humble rock indeed.

Peace,

Ceeboo

A rock huh? As it happens, I recognize the referrence. You should really stop getting your comic material from the famous knot-head Kent Hovind.

To call the ancient earth a rock ignores the fact that it consisted of the same elements and many of the same compounds that are found in your body and bodies of all living things. It also ignores the fact the earth was, and is, an open thermdynamic system taking up energy and in a sense "negative entropy" from the sun and thereby creating a perfect setting for the emergence of various forms of complexity--including the emergence of self-replicating molecules. But to the tree stump known as Kent Hovind, the earth was simply a "rock". Did he ever get beyond 2nd grade?

[Brade]

...(note dallin oaks admits he has never even had a burning of the bosom testimony)...

Where and when did he admit that he has never even had a burning of the bosom testimony?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

note your use of the word "basically". did he say "i have seen jesus"? nope.

joseph smith didnt "basically" say he'd seen jesus...

there is no continuing prophetic/apostolic testimony of seeing jesus and having first-hand, visual knowledge of him...

thus these "special witnesses of the name of jesus christ" have no more special, pretend, emotional/psychological witnesses than any other member of the church... a witness that is no different than the feeling you get while watching an emotional movie or anything real-seeming that your mind can create while dreaming...

This is sad dude. If I say I went to the grocery store and that is all I said we can then conclude in all confidence that I did not drive, right?

[Ceeboo]

A rock huh? As it happens, I recognize the referrence. You should really stop getting your comic material from the famous knot-head Kent Hovind.

To call the ancient earth a rock ignores the fact that it consisted of the same elements and many of the same compounds that are found in your body and bodies of all living things. It also ignores the fact the earth was, and is, an open thermdynamic system taking up energy and in a sense "negative entropy" from the sun and thereby creating a perfect setting for the emergence of various forms of complexity--including the emergence of self-replicating molecules. But to the tree stump known as Kent Hovind, the earth was simply a "rock". Did he ever get beyond 2nd grade?

Hey ya Tarski,

Your post screams of a Master who created this perfect masterpiece, no?

BTW, I know who Dr. Dino is but surely you realize I was just attempting to share a smile with you regarding the self portrait you painted on yourself. (You really should consider thanking God for that picture perfect body you were blessed with)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Deborah]

i expected this type of reply. are you serious? an apostle's job is to testify of jesus, just like paul did, just like all the other prophets and apostles in scriptures who it is written of have seen him did. they're not supposed to hide him under a bush =)

And who did they testify to? With rare exceptions to the faithful. However, you will find that prophets of old rarely told of their personal visions but rather called the people to repentance and talked about what would happen if the people didn't repent. Even Joseph Smith was careful to whom he told about his visions. He learned early how he would be mocked by Satan's advocates. He addressed the faithful members of the church, many who had their own visions.

Modern Apostles have repeatedly testified of Christ and I have heard a few (and some rather recently) who have directly referred to personal knowledge of this of a nature which they could not speak.

wake up you guys, seriously.

Seriously, you need to grow up and do a little more study. I suggest you actually read the OT about what prophets actually spoke on.

[Deborah]

Several Apostles have spoken of the "certain" witness that comes with being an Apostle. Many speak of their "solemn witness." James Faust made such a statement:

[ERMD]

i expected this type of reply. are you serious? an apostle's job is to testify of jesus, just like paul did, just like all the other prophets and apostles in scriptures who it is written of have seen him did. they're not supposed to hide him under a bush =)

faithful member: prophet, can you tell me about when you first met jesus?

lds prophet: that is much too special to tell you, but i KNOW that he lives.

faithful member: wow, he really MUST have seen jesus!

wake up you guys, seriously.

> And you know this how?

lack of evidence. i cant find anywhere on lds.org where an apostle or prophet in general conference has said "i have seen jesus christ" or anything to that effect. the only thing you'll find is them saying "i know that the savior/jesus/etc lives, by the power of the holy ghost (etc)". they dont say they have seen him, because they havent. but the scriptures are filled with "men of god" who say they have.

You won't accept this, but here's the answer:

9And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Bruce R. McConkie spoke at the MTC when I was there in 1984. He said (I have it recorded in my notes), "I have a perfect knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Given what he wrote and what the scriptures say about "perfect knowledge", I do not see this as being indirect. Nor do I see what Elder Nelson told you as being vague or side-stepping the issue.

He who has ears to hear, and all that.

[BCSpace]

* apostles and prophets after joseph smith are not chosen by revelation, but by succession, appointment and voting *

Acts 1:26. Judas' replacement, Matthias, was decided upon by rolling the dice.

[nickleus]

Where and when did he admit that he has never even had a burning of the bosom testimony?

What does a

[Pahoran]

What does a

[Pahoran]

Tarski,

Since you have elsewhere magnanimously decided to overlook my "tone" enough to resume interacting with me, I remind you that you have two outstanding calls for reference here.

Here they are, together with the statements that prompted them:

But I know this, the highest level GAs and the FP allow rank and file members to think that they have direct, if not face to face, contact with Christ himself.

Call for references, please. If you "know" it, you must therefore be able to support it.

Well, they aren't better than me and if I were to tell senators that I didn't receive revelation I would tell it to the church too. But that's just me.

Call for references that President Smith told the Church anything different than what he told the Smoot Inquisition.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Kevin Christensen]

I recall a conference talk in the past decade or so (before 2002), in which an elderly LDS Apostle (David B. Haight) talked about having a near death experience he'd had during an operation, in which he was asked what he wanted to know. He reported that he wanted to see the life of Jesus, and that he was then shown what he asked to see. (I'm away from my library, so it would take a while for me to remember the name and to provide the source.) But it wasn't a secret, hidden thing, just because nickleus didn't find it. The apostle's report was profoundly reverent, and reticent.

I recall New Testament passages, like the Mount of Transfiguration, wherein the apostles are told to "tell no man" as well as several miracle stories in which people are told to tell no one. I don't see any indications that the LDS leadership have been directed to tell all that they know. I do know that they say that most of the revelation they receive comes via impressions, rather than visions. (Elder Packer gave a talk on this topic that back in 1973.) Most.

I've heard personal accounts from four different acquaintances of mine, none of whom knew each other, who received profoundly personal mountain top epiphanies. I heard these accounts given in sacred personal moments. None of the four speak publicly about those particular experiences.

The sacred experiences that the LDS apostles had when President Kimball delivered the 1978 revelation were not attached to the public announcement. Those of us who remember hearing that announcement did not need their accounts to validate our own sacred feelings on hearing it.

I've also heard a then prominent TV preacher claim that he'd had a 400 foot tall Jesus tell him to raise a lot of money for a hospital. I noted a distinct difference in my own sense of the reverence and sacredness, not only in what I felt, but in what I felt from that claimant.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Vance]

I've also heard a then prominent TV preacher claim that he'd had a 400 foot tall Jesus tell him to raise a lot of money for a hospital. I noted a distinct difference in my own sense of the reverence and sacredness, not only in what I felt, but in what I felt from that claimant.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Your are only saying that because his Jesus is bigger than your Jesus.

Just kidding.

[nickleus]

I recall a conference talk in the past decade or so (before 2002), in which an elderly LDS Apostle (David B. Haight) talked about having a near death experience he'd had during an operation, in which he was asked what he wanted to know. He reported that he wanted to see the life of Jesus, and that he was then shown what he asked to see. (I'm away from my library, so it would take a while for me to remember the name and to provide the source.) But it wasn't a secret, hidden thing, just because nickleus didn't find it. The apostle's report was profoundly reverent, and reticent.

i had a near death experience when i was shot at byu and i saw BOTH god and jesus on a bunch of clouds (just like i had heard described by many before. my brain was just replicating what i had heard previously). a vision/dream is not the same thing as a physical visitation. david b haight's experience is no different than mine. if haight saw jesus' life, what new information did he bring to the table that wasnt known before? if nothing, then it is exactly as i described, a regurgitation of something your brain has known before. like i said before, our brains create dreams and visions that we perceive to be real. think of all the crazy dreams you have had before that you thought were real, but then you woke up. but if the dream/vision is about jesus or god, oh then its real... =)

[Kevin Christensen]

i had a near death experience when i was shot at byu and i saw BOTH god and jesus on a bunch of clouds (just like i had heard described by many before. my brain was just replicating what i had heard previously). a vision/dream is not the same thing as a physical visitation. david b haight's experience is no different than mine. if haight saw jesus' life, what new information did he bring to the table that wasnt known before? if nothing, then it is exactly as i described, a regurgitation of something your brain has known before. like i said before, our brains create dreams and visions that we perceive to be real. think of all the crazy dreams you have had before that you thought were real, but then you woke up. but if the dream/vision is about jesus or god, oh then its real... =)

How nice of you to come along and raise the bar, rather than admit that you were wrong.

The issue for me is not at all whether a dream or vision is the same as a visitation, but whether the dream or vision comes from God. If it does, and if confirming impressions, ideas, thoughts, feelings also come from God, then it is all one. If, for example, when I happened to spot the only copy of a book by Margaret Barker that I had ever seen during a visit to a bookstore in Dallas, I get a strong impression that I should buy that book, and if when I read it, I could say "never did any book come with more power to the heart of man than this book did at this time to mine," and if I look at what has happened since that day, to me, if no one else, I don't fret that I didn't have Jesus personally grabbing my head and pointing it, and his voice in my ear telling me to buy it and why and what would happen if I did, along with the staff of the Skeptial Inquirer watching with coerced approval and nodding and CNN broadcasting the whole thing.

I've received personal revelation, and known it, and I know that God knows it. I have not received visions, nor visitations, nor personal NDEs. But as far as I'm concerned, it would not make much difference, other than accountability.

I attended the IANDS conference in Salt Lake City in 1999. I met several people, LDS and non-LDS who reported remarkable experiences. And all the research I have read, and the accounts I have heard include the observation that true NDE accounts are not fuzzy dreams or hallucinations, but have a hyper-real quality that sets them apart. This is clear in comparing accounts by those who have hallucinated, and who generalize about others experiences, assuming that their own hallucinations must be the same as another's visions. The data do not match.

I also read an article by someone who was so skeptical in general that he not only doubts the reality of his own NDE, but admits that while he was having it, he believed it was real, and predicted that when he dies again, he will again believe it. Some people are so terrified of being taken in that they find refuge in reflexive disbelief. So terrified of being disappointed by anything and anyone that they refuse all hope and faith as way to ensure that they never have to suffer disappointment and disillusion. C.S. Lewis noted the phenomena on The Great Divorce. There are people who are perfectly willing to embrace only faith and hope in that which is conveyed through a combination of public miracles and approved of by the skeptical human authority of the moment.

I have received many impressions and confirming experiences that tell me things I have known before. That God lives, Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God, that the Book of Mormon is a record with reality behind it. On other occasions, I have received impressions and confirming experiences that led me to discover a great many things I did not know before. The reality of the confirming experiences, the comforting experiences, and those that led to new knowledge do not exclude one another. Rather, in my view, they are mutually supporting.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[pcarthew]

i had a near death experience when i was shot at byu and i saw BOTH god and jesus on a bunch of clouds (just like i had heard described by many before. my brain was just replicating what i had heard previously). a vision/dream is not the same thing as a physical visitation. david b haight's experience is no different than mine. if haight saw jesus' life, what new information did he bring to the table that wasnt known before? if nothing, then it is exactly as i described, a regurgitation of something your brain has known before. like i said before, our brains create dreams and visions that we perceive to be real. think of all the crazy dreams you have had before that you thought were real, but then you woke up. but if the dream/vision is about jesus or god, oh then its real... =)

As I have read from your OP through to this post, I am intrigued how dismissive you are of anything other that you own personal experience. You seem to have broken everything down in nice little packages you can spew out, then when you have a sensible response you completely ignore it. Try not to be so ignorant, there are people on this board who have great insight and knowledge about many things of the restored gospel, you don't have to agree with them but at least in the smallest part be a little more considered. You may have in your own my mind and life, worked out for yourself the church is no longer true, some revelation of your intellect or whatever happened. Reading between the lines that has taken some years in you life to do so. Perhaps that is an indicator that you are personally slow, if it has taken so many years to work it out only kidding! But seriously you arguments are not that good. BTW if the church no longer spins your wheels I actually feel sorry for you, however my suggestion for future peace and happiness would either be to reconsider the fact that modern day prophets continually receive revelation, or forget all about what you found to be incorrect about the church and just find another hobby. You seem to be taking things rather personally. I hope you find happiness.