Ether 2:13 - and they called the name of the place Moriancumer

[Zakuska]

So now we have a place called SHAZER... Which the Book of Mormon places correctly Geographically.

A place called Nahom.... which the BOM again places Correctly Geographically.And now...

Ether 2: 13

13 And now

I proceed with my record; for behold, it came to pass that the Lord did bring

Jared and his brethren forth even to that great sea which divideth the lands.

And as they came to the sea they pitched their tents; and they called the name

of the place Moriancumer; and they dwelt in tents, and dwelt in tents upon the

seashore for the space of four years.

A place called Moriancumer in Northern Oman...

Third, The Jaredites called the land where they built their ships Moriancumer (Ether 2:13). Tribes in the Near East have the tradition of naming mountains, wadis and other geographical features after themselves. Lehi was no exception naming the valley they camped in after his son Lemuel, and the river that flowed by their tents after another son, Laman. The tribal name of the Jaredites was

[Uncle Dale]

...

Joseph Smiths hits are getting stronger and stronger...

Let me know when this stuff hits the "breaking news" section

of National Geographic. Until then, I'll assume that the

non-LDS world does not agree that Smith is growing in strength.

Brigham Young at least made it to the popularity level of

being featured on a US postage stamp in 1947. Ask the average

person who Joseph Smith is, and you'll either get a blank stare,

or a guess that he's the guy who lives down the street two blocks.

UD

.

[Zakuska]

Ask the average person who Joseph Smith is, and you'll either get a blank stare,

or a guess that he's the guy who lives down the street two blocks.

UD

The most common mistaken Identity I get is with John Smith of Pocahontas [sic] fame.

[Glenn101]

http://www.nephiproj...for_the_jar.htm

Joseph Smiths hits are getting stronger and stronger, not weaker and weaker like the Apostates claim!

I haven't followed the link as of yet, but it would surprise me if this is a hit. The textual evidence does not indicate a semitic origin for the Jaredite names, but actually argues against it. The language of the Jaredites was not confounded at the dispersal from the tower of Babel and supposedly remained the pure Adamic language. I will have to go back and find some of the research on Jaredite names to reinforce this line of thought, but it does not seem that they are related to the semitic languages.

Glenn

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Joseph Smiths hits are getting stronger and stronger, not weaker and weaker like the Apostates claim!

Sounds like, and time will only improve his numbers.

[USU78]

A place called Moriancumer in Northern Oman...

Mrncmr . . . Mrrcmr

Some have mentioned that Jaredite, as preserved in the proper nouns in the BoM, is not Semitic. I'm not so sure about that, it may well be an early language in the family or perhaps a distaff branch, but the above is problematic for me.

First off, the absence of the [i/j] in your proposed mrn-cmr (making it *mrjn-cmr) may be fatal to the proposed connection. The lack of a 3-consonant word in *mrjn doesn't bother me so much as that lack, and the mrr = mrn is a real headscratcher.

I'd love to see this work, and there's always the possibility that the millenia with their attendant comings and goings of various tribes and language groups have changed the pronunciation, but where would we ever find evidence demonstrating the match?

[Uncle Dale]

Sounds like, and time will only improve his numbers.

Well, didn't the 1844 T&S prophecy state,

"Millions Shall Know Brother Joseph Again." ???

If the LDS Church today has 13,000,000 members,

and if those members continue to have at least

a couple of kids, then eventually "his numbers"

should exceed twenty million.

Of course in that sum you'll have to include some

"Smith-knowers" like Ed Decker, Sandra Tanner, etc.

My guess is, that as a percentage of the world's

TOTAL population, Smith-knowers will shrink, while

Muhammad-knowers will continue to expand greatly.

UD

[Zakuska]

Glenn & USU78:

You have to remember that we are looking at the Jaredite record though the semetic lenses of Moroni...

ergo... "I proceed with my record"

And then the added layers of Joseph Smith, his Scribes and his editors.

Lets look at some of the other evidences.

Both Nephi and Jared mention the "empty quarter". Which is a HUGE desert just north of the Marah and Cumar Mountian ranges.

Nephi's Bountiful was "nearly eastward" from Nahom

This clear directional relationship between the two places (see 1 Nephi 17:1) was likely fairly precise, rather than just a general direction. In this Old World setting, Nephi was very precise about directions, recording earlier in his account, for example, that their travel from Jerusalem was in "nearly a south-southeast direction" (1 Nephi 16:13).

Therefore, identifying the location of Nahom becomes important in the search for Bountiful. So far, only one site seems to meet the scriptural requirements for Nahom: the tribal area still known as Nehem which lies about twenty-five miles northeast of Sana'a, capital of the Republic of Yemen. Nehem is the only place in Arabia where the Semitic name nhm (spelled variously as Nahm, Nehem, Nihm, etc.) is preserved. The name has now been accounted for in the same location through maps and early writings to as early as AD 600 and possibly earlier. The location must be considered the leading candidate for Nahom.

Nephi's account specifies that Ishmael was buried in "the place which was called Nahom" (1 Nephi 16:34). Nephi's phrasing suggests that Lehi's group did not originate the name but learned it from local inhabitants. Modern Nehem includes an extensive traditional burial area with tombs dating as far back as neolithic times, long predating Lehi's day. The roots of the name itself in Hebrew refers to mourning, consoling, and complaining of hunger, thus fitting perfectly the events recorded by Nephi after the death of his father-in-law, Ishmael (see 1 Nephi 16:35

[Zakuska]

Well, didn't the 1844 T&S prophecy state,

"Millions Shall Know Brother Joseph Again." ???

If the LDS Church today has 13,000,000 members,

and if those members continue to have at least

a couple of kids, then eventually "his numbers"

should exceed twenty million.

Of course in that sum you'll have to include some

"Smith-knowers" like Ed Decker, Sandra Tanner, etc.

My guess is, that as a percentage of the world's

TOTAL population, Smith-knowers will shrink, while

Muhammad-knowers will continue to expand greatly.

UD

Thanks for having the gumpsion and admiting that the prophecy has indeed been fulffilled.

[volgadon]

So now we have a place called SHAZER... Which the Book of Mormon places correctly Geographically.

A place called Nahom.... which the BOM again places Correctly Geographically.And now...

Ether 2: 13

13 And now

I proceed with my record; for behold, it came to pass that the Lord did bring

Jared and his brethren forth even to that great sea which divideth the lands.

And as they came to the sea they pitched their tents; and they called the name

of the place Moriancumer; and they dwelt in tents, and dwelt in tents upon the

seashore for the space of four years.

A place called Moriancumer in Northern Oman...

http://www.nephiproj...for_the_jar.htm

Joseph Smiths hits are getting stronger and stronger, not weaker and weaker like the Apostates claim!

If you look carefully, the Jaredites name their campground on the seashore Moriancumer, not the two nearby mountain ranges, nor do they split the name into two and drop the n. Also, why would the names have been preserved?

[Zakuska]

If you look carefully, the Jaredites name their campground on the seashore Moriancumer, not the two nearby mountain ranges, nor do they split the name into two and drop the n.

Or has the N been added by Joseph Smiths scribes. Something like Marah -N- Cumar. ?

You also must have missed this one...

It is common to see on maps of southern Arabia the two names written side by side, the Marrah Camar[lii] mountains.

So on some maps there is no "Split".

If we take the route of the Moroni-Cummoros Pirate Bill crowd... Joseph Smith could have easily saw this on a map mistook the mountian ranges as a city/town/camp name and incorporated it into his story.

Also, why would the names have been preserved?

They did party on the beach for 4 years. The locals going to party with them would have known where the camp with all the good wine was. And then when they got into full building mode... (8 bardges takes a lot of work) the locals would have had their full address where to deliver the building supplies.

[volgadon]

Or has the N been added by Joseph Smiths scribes. Something like Marah -N- Cumar. ?

You also must have missed this one...

So on some maps there is no "Split".

There would be no split if the names were interchangeable. No indication of that. What we are left with is some maps being economical with space for names.

We also have no indication that the n was added by the scribes.

If we take the route of the Moroni-Cummoros Pirate Bill crowd... Joseph Smith could have easily saw this on a map mistook the mountian ranges as a city/town/camp name and incorporated it into his story.

Yet the text designates an area on the beach, not two mountain ranges.

They did party on the beach for 4 years. The locals going to party with them would have known where the camp with all the good wine was. And then when they got into full building mode... (8 bardges takes a lot of work) the locals would have had their full address where to deliver the building supplies.

Laying aside the silly wine bit, this still does not answer how the names were preserved, why they were split and transfered to mountains.

[Zakuska]

Yet the text designates an area on the beach, not two mountain ranges.

The two mountian ranges border the beach. Jared did go up into the Mountians to get the stones.

Laying aside the silly wine bit, this still does not answer how the names were preserved, why they were split and transfered to mountains.

I'll have to get back to you on that.

[volgadon]

The two mountian ranges border the beach. Jared did go up into the Mountians to get the stones.

How far away are they?

[Zakuska]

I would figure.... Less than 50 miles. Let me get on google earth and see.

In the meantime. This is the land we are talking about. As you can see... these mountians surround the beach.

Remember that Khor rori is a famous Frachnsense Harbor that Roman historians all wrote about. (It was called something different back then)

[volgadon]

I would figure.... Less than 50 miles. Let me get on google earth and see.

80 km away??? If that is true then it is the death knell for this theory.

Way too far, clutching at straws on Potter's part.

[krose]

Could you point us to a couple of maps where the two mountain ranges (Jebel Marra and Jebel al Qamar) are written side by side?

I don't know if it affects anything, but Jebel Marra is a volcano that was active around that time. Its last eruption was around 2000 BCE.

[Zakuska]

Could you point us to a couple of maps where the two mountain ranges (Jebel Marra and Jebel al Qamar) are written side by side?

I'll see if I can find some.

I don't know if it affects anything, but Jebel Marra is a volcano that was active around that time. Its last eruption was around 2000 BCE.

What were you complaining about on the other thread... ?

oh yes....

Ether 3

1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight) went forth unto the ^amount, which they called the mount ^bShelem, because of its exceeding height, and did ^cmolten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent ^dglass; and he did carry them in his hands upon the top of the mount, and cried again unto the Lord, saying:

Jebel Marra = Mount Shelem?

Intresting possiblities here. Wouldn't you think? Jared would have had a natural glass furnace in the area?!

[Zakuska]

80 km away??? If that is true then it is the death knell for this theory.

Way too far, clutching at straws on Potter's part.

Perhaps for Khor Rori... but not along this sea coast.

[krose]

What were you complaining about on the other thread... ?

Well, I'm not really happy with your verb there. It's just a step away from "whining."

But my question there was regarding the 16 stones that Mahonri allegedly melted out of a rock that were transparent as glass. Your suggestion was that they actually were glass (which I thought made the wording comparing their transparency to glass a bit odd), and perhaps even glass jars, made by grinding and melting quartz. I was not convinced (still not) that a lone man of that era would possess glassmaking skills, but that's okay. I also questioned the attempts at a naturalistic explanation for the glowing.

I don't see how a nearby volcano helps in that regard. I hadn't suggested there was a shortage of volcanic rock in the area for any reason.

Add: Just noticed your winking edit. Okey-dokey.

[LeSellers]

The language of the Jaredites was not confounded at the dispersal from the tower of Babel and supposedly remained the pure Adamic language.

This is a common and unfounded assumption.

The fact that Jared, his brother, their families, and their friends' (and their families') language was not confounded, does not mean that they continued to speak Adamic. It could just as easily be that they got a new language in common among themselves, a language unrelated to Adamic or Hebrew or any other language post-Noachin language. It could equally be they did continue to speak Adamic, or Hebrew, or another language recorded elsewhere. We simply do not know the language Mahonri spoke and wrote.

However, Hugh Nibley discovered (and others have verified) that no personal or other names appear in any of the pre-Mosiah books of the Book of Mormon, but that they abound later. Thereafter, we have Jaredite names (as compared to those in Ether) for both people and places. Further, there are far more dissidents with Jaredite names than Hebew or Egyptian names, Laman and Lemuel notwithstanding.

This factoid, the Jaredite names, is another internal consistency the evidences the truth of the book of Mormon.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

Both Farms (Hugh Nibley especially) and Potter. Agree that Salalah is the place.

Salalah

In Mormon culture, the most popular traditional location of Bountiful is Salalah in modern Oman. LDS scholar Hugh Nibley first proposed this location as Nephi's Bountiful in an article published in the Improvement Era in 1950. Nibley's conclusion was based upon early writings describing life in Arabia, including an account describing the fertile Salalah area written by English explorer Bertram Thomas (Aston 1998).

http://en.wikipedia....(Book_of_Mormon)

[jadams_4242]

So now we have a place called SHAZER... Which the Book of Mormon places correctly Geographically.

A place called Nahom.... which the BOM again places Correctly Geographically.And now...

Ether 2: 13

13 And now

I proceed with my record; for behold, it came to pass that the Lord did bring

Jared and his brethren forth even to that great sea which divideth the lands.

And as they came to the sea they pitched their tents; and they called the name

of the place Moriancumer; and they dwelt in tents, and dwelt in tents upon the

seashore for the space of four years.

A place called Moriancumer in Northern Oman...

http://www.nephiproj...for_the_jar.htm

Joseph Smiths hits are getting stronger and stronger, not weaker and weaker like the Apostates claim!

There are those whom will do all they can to pick this apart; but "prove" it wrong is impossible!!!!!

[Zakuska]

My first attempt at finding maps has been unfruitfull. I've found a few with Marah in the right location nothing with Cumar yet. I know that Potter shows the maps on the video. I'll keep looking.

http://commons.wikim...of_Saudi_Arabia

In the mean time lets look at Potters foot note:

[lii] The name Camar, Qamar or Comor are all Latin spellings for the Arabic word for moon. The argument would be stronger if the term were of the language of the Jaredites and not the much later Arabic language.

It is intresting that at the port of Khor Rhori an ancient temple has been unearthed dedicated to the... wait for it...

"Moon God"

Some early archeology of the temple:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1355672

Maybe thats an even better link to Jared and provides the "Cumar" portion of their name, and that temple is EXACTLY on the beach. Maybe 2 miles away at the most.

Here the 2006 Potter expedition to the area.

http://www.powershow..._September_2006

[Glenn101]

This is a common and unfounded assumption.

The fact that Jared, his brother, their families, and their friends' (and their families') language was not confounded, does not mean that they continued to speak Adamic. It could just as easily be that they got a new language in common among themselves, a language unrelated to Adamic or Hebrew or any other language post-Noachin language. It could equally be they did continue to speak Adamic, or Hebrew, or another language recorded elsewhere. We simply do not know the language Mahonri spoke and wrote.

There is no textual evidence to suggest that they did not continue to speak the Adamic language, or rather the language that had evolved from the language that Adam spoke. But your last point is well taken.

However, Hugh Nibley discovered (and others have verified) that no personal or other names appear in any of the pre-Mosiah books of the Book of Mormon, but that they abound later. Thereafter, we have Jaredite names (as compared to those in Ether) for both people and places. Further, there are far more dissidents with Jaredite names than Hebew or Egyptian names, Laman and Lemuel notwithstanding.

This factoid, the Jaredite names, is another internal consistency the evidences the truth of the book of Mormon.

Lehi

Better check with Uncle Dale. I'm sure that he can find some Jaredite names for you in something that Solomon Spalding may have written sometime, somewhere.

Glenn