Utah as a Place for Doing Business

[Jeff K.]

Underwear.

Utah is not the safest state; it only ranks 16:

http://www.walletpop.com/insurance/safest-states

Utah is number one porn consumer:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html

Number one prescription drug abuse:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070306/ai_n18722437/

Heroin use on the rise:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/article_9e4ff3d5-9d8d-5c4a-993f-db0ff3f230e4.html

You would expect Utah to lead the way with all three of those... yet it doesn't. My father grew up in Springville Utah (right next to provo) and a large majority of his childhood friends are dead because of drug abuse.

Everyone is a member of the church in Utah county.... of course not literally everyone, but I think the recent statistic is like 88%(I would imagine hispanic immigration is causing it to go down, but I have no clue). In my dad's time, I would imagine it was much higher.

The premise that Utah is some sort of holy place with impeccable morals just doesn't match the data. It's a normal state with normal problems. I daresay that some of these, like pornography, can be attributed because of the church. I would imagine that discussion is not allowed here though.

As the article D.P. linked states, the reasons for being number one in business are low cost of energy, educated labor force, etc. etc. It has little to do with the church's influence. Most of these companies moved here from other states, and I doubt it was because of mormons. It was because of money.

Some of us work with statistics fairly regularly, and so before you toss out what appear to be interesting numbers, you may want to consider just how you read those statistics.

For isntance, where crime is concerned, is it per capita and how is each crime ranked in terms of value versus other crimes? Is rape the same as car theft on its impact? In the question of porn, are this simply a reaction mainly by non members who decided to use their credit cards? Since pornograpy is generally free on the internet (you can read all kinds of reports as to how the pornography industry is being killed by the internet). Just how sure are you of these numbers you google?

I do know the information behind the the painkiller abuse in Utah. I know those statistics reflect a strong surge. But they do not reflect illegal drugs, but perscription drugs which can be interpreted as the states permissiveness. It is one reason I am against the legalization of marijuana here in CA. It is also a strong reflection of the strength and truth behind the word of wisdom, simply another testimony in life of the truthfulness of God's revelation in our church.

The premise that Utah is some sort of holy place with impeccable morals just doesn't match the data. It's a normal state with normal problems. I daresay that some of these, like pornography, can be attributed because of the church. I would imagine that discussion is not allowed here though.

You are right though, Utah is only as holy as those who make it up, just as temple work is only as holy as the participants. But no one here called Utah a "holy place" so much as a better place to live. For instance in safe cities like New Hampshire and Maine, beautiful place, great people, but it gets more snow on the general area and the winters are a wet cold and longer than in Utah. Having experienced both states I think I would prefer Utah. To me, it seems you are projecting your own anger issues more than anything else. Which is ok, but I think everyone looking at it needs to understand you have your own problems where Mormons and Utahns in general are concerned.

[JarMan]

As the article D.P. linked states, the reasons for being number one in business are low cost of energy, educated labor force, etc. etc. It has little to do with the church's influence. Most of these companies moved here from other states, and I doubt it was because of mormons. It was because of money.

Why is energy cost low in Utah? It must be because of the vast underground reservoirs of oil. Or the mighty rivers that produce vast amounts of hydroelectric power. Or, wait, maybe it's because Utah is a good place to do business, which, therefore allows energy companies to operate efficiently.

Since you don't see a correlation between Mormon values and the state's economy let me help you connect the dots. First off is the educated work force. You've probably been too busy throwing mud to realize that Mormons tend to be better educated than average Americans. Most reasonable people attribute this to the value the church places on strong families and education.

The other factors considered in Forbes analysis had a lot to do with government intervention (or lack, thereof) in business. If you are claiming that there is no relation between government policy in Utah and Mormon values then you ought to tell the Salt Lake Tribune which complains about this very thing in roughly ten out of ten issues.

Forbes has recently named Utah the most fiscally fit state government. It's clear that the fiscally conservative nature of the Utah legislature can be directly attributed to the conservative values of Mormonism. I know this because I listen to what the legislators and governor have to say. I also listen to what the church has to say about not going into debt and in keeping your financial house in order. And it all sounds pretty much like the same thing.

And whether companies grow here or move here is irrelevant to this particular discussion. The reason companies move here IS about money, as you've said. But as I've already shown, the ability to make money in Utah is directly related to Mormon values permeating state government.

[LT123]

Underwear.

Utah is not the safest state; it only ranks 16:

http://www.walletpop.com/insurance/safest-states

Utah is number one porn consumer:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html

Number one prescription drug abuse:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070306/ai_n18722437/

Heroin use on the rise:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/article_9e4ff3d5-9d8d-5c4a-993f-db0ff3f230e4.html

You would expect Utah to lead the way with all three of those... yet it doesn't. My father grew up in Springville Utah (right next to provo) and a large majority of his childhood friends are dead because of drug abuse.

Everyone is a member of the church in Utah county.... of course not literally everyone, but I think the recent statistic is like 88%(I would imagine hispanic immigration is causing it to go down, but I have no clue). In my dad's time, I would imagine it was much higher.

The premise that Utah is some sort of holy place with impeccable morals just doesn't match the data. It's a normal state with normal problems. I daresay that some of these, like pornography, can be attributed because of the church. I would imagine that discussion is not allowed here though.

As the article D.P. linked states, the reasons for being number one in business are low cost of energy, educated labor force, etc. etc. It has little to do with the church's influence. Most of these companies moved here from other states, and I doubt it was because of mormons. It was because of money.

That porn study is pure baloney. Wow, they found one company whose receipts show that conservative states spent more money-though only slightly. To offer that as evidence of anything is laughable.

[Daniel Peterson]

I thought for some reason you were implying that the church's influence was the cause. I had a huge misunderstanding. Haha, you can pretty much ignore all my posts in the thread.

I'm already doing that, basically. [For those so inclined, insert smiley here.]

But I'm reasonably certain that the Church's influence is, in fact, an indirect factor.

[LDSToronto]

Right, cos low labour costs and cheap land clearly have everything to do with people showing up to work sober....

While I don't dispute that Utah is a great place to live and to run a business, I do take umbrage with the couple of posts that insinuate that people show up to work drunk everywhere but Utah. In all my years, as a professional, I can't say I've ever seen co-workers show up drunk. Is this a real problem across the USA?

H.

[frankenstein]

frankenstein,

I guess you are admitting, then, that you really have no idea how economics works.

I know exactly how economics work:

Greed is how economics work. The ills of an economy can be trace to the exact same source, GREED.

Hmm...the forbes list isn't how about how economics work. The forbes list is a balancing of scales, with various factors weighted against each other. The most important factor being the all mighty dollar which trumps all other considerations.

[Calm]

While I don't dispute that Utah is a great place to live and to run a business, I do take umbrage with the couple of posts that insinuate that people show up to work drunk everywhere but Utah. In all my years, as a professional, I can't say I've ever seen co-workers show up drunk. Is this a real problem across the USA?

H.

See http://alcoholism.ab...a/aa000613a.htm for some info.

lcohol costs in Canada amount to $7.5 billion each year, and $1.4 billion is lost each year because of decreased occupational productivity caused by hangover-like symptoms. Studies in other countries show similar estimates for the annual cost of alcohol ingestion: Australia, $3.8 billion; New Zealand, $331 million; and the United States, $148 billion.

[LDSToronto]

See http://alcoholism.ab...a/aa000613a.htm for some info.

Well, I guess we are drunks after all...

H.

[Daniel Peterson]

While I don't dispute that Utah is a great place to live and to run a business, I do take umbrage with the couple of posts that insinuate that people show up to work drunk everywhere but Utah. In all my years, as a professional, I can't say I've ever seen co-workers show up drunk. Is this a real problem across the USA?

Come on, now. Fess up.

You posted the note above while drunk, right?

We Utahans know all about you Gentile-types outside of Zion.

[LDSToronto]

Come on, now. Fess up.

You posted the note above while drunk, right?

We Utahans know all about you Gentile-types outside of Zion.

Not only was I drunk, I posted this from work!

H.

[LeSellers]

In all my years, as a professional, I can't say I've ever seen co-workers show up drunk. Is this a real problem across the USA?

Unfortunately, yes; and not just "across the USA".

Your myopia is probably because of the emphasized phrase (although drug-impaired professionals are not rare, either

[Eldwynn]

I'm already doing that, basically. [For those so inclined, insert smiley here.]

But I'm reasonably certain that the Church's influence is, in fact, an indirect factor.

Believe it or not, the "you" in that sentence wasn't actual referring to Dan Peterson. I thought it was pretty obvious who it was referring to.

I'm reasonably certain that you won't care to back that up with any sort of actual evidence.[For those so inclined, insert smiley here.]

[Eldwynn]

Some of us work with statistics fairly regularly, and so before you toss out what appear to be interesting numbers, you may want to consider just how you read those statistics.

For isntance, where crime is concerned, is it per capita and how is each crime ranked in terms of value versus other crimes? Is rape the same as car theft on its impact? In the question of porn, are this simply a reaction mainly by non members who decided to use their credit cards? Since pornograpy is generally free on the internet (you can read all kinds of reports as to how the pornography industry is being killed by the internet). Just how sure are you of these numbers you google?

I do know the information behind the the painkiller abuse in Utah. I know those statistics reflect a strong surge. But they do not reflect illegal drugs, but perscription drugs which can be interpreted as the states permissiveness. It is one reason I am against the legalization of marijuana here in CA. It is also a strong reflection of the strength and truth behind the word of wisdom, simply another testimony in life of the truthfulness of God's revelation in our church.

You are right though, Utah is only as holy as those who make it up, just as temple work is only as holy as the participants. But no one here called Utah a "holy place" so much as a better place to live. For instance in safe cities like New Hampshire and Maine, beautiful place, great people, but it gets more snow on the general area and the winters are a wet cold and longer than in Utah. Having experienced both states I think I would prefer Utah. To me, it seems you are projecting your own anger issues more than anything else. Which is ok, but I think everyone looking at it needs to understand you have your own problems where Mormons and Utahns in general are concerned.

Well I don't think we should be arguing about weather and so forth. I for one hated the weather in Utah. Much better in Seattle; but I am sure plenty disagree. We may as well start talking about the attractiveness of the women at this point

As for porn, I understand where the study has its flaws. However, as a state with such a high number of LDS members, I would expect it to be smack on the bottom compared to other states. We are talking about quite a divide here. The study does show that Utah had the highest number subscribers per 1000 broadband users. Would there be a better way?

As for crime, if the method (say violent crime per 1000 people) remains constant between states that are being compared, then how much of a difference are you really going to make? Why should violent crime count for more than sexual crime?

I work with statistics all the time. Admittedly, its in the context of neurobiology, but I still get the basics of these sorts of things.

[Programmer]

Utah is great and everything, and I live here now (Just returned very recently), but all things being equal: I'd rather live in Quebec.

It's just that Quebec has the highest taxes in North America (More so than New York), so I choose* not to live there.

*Well there were other factors that influenced my decision, not just high taxes.

[Daniel Peterson]

I know exactly how economics work:

Greed is how economics work.

That's a pretty cynical view.

I don't think it's correct. I'm sure that my doctor hopes to be paid, but I've never thought him "greedy" for that. My father wasn't a greedy man. Nor, I think, were the men who worked for his construction company. My late uncle, a wheat farmer down in Levan, didn't seem to be motivated particularly by "greed." Nor does the check-out clerk at our supermarket. Nor my dentist.

The ills of an economy can be trace to the exact same source, GREED.

Sometimes. Often not, though.

Hmm...the forbes list isn't how about how economics work. The forbes list is a balancing of scales, with various factors weighted against each other. The most important factor being the all mighty dollar which trumps all other considerations.

Rather a quirky reading of the article, I think.

Believe it or not, the "you" in that sentence wasn't actual referring to Dan Peterson. I thought it was pretty obvious who it was referring to.

Why would I have a hard time believing it? It was obvious. I never thought it referred to me.

I'm reasonably certain that you won't care to back that up with any sort of actual evidence.[For those so inclined, insert smiley here.]

No, I won't. It seems to me intuitively obvious that the predominant (and very pervasive) religion of a place will have a powerful influence on that place's culture, and that the culture of a place will have an impact on the character of its people, and that certain Mormon cultural traits do have implications for employment. But if you want to dispute that, feel free. Arguing for it with you, here, isn't a high priority of mine.

[frankenstein]

That's a pretty cynical view.

yes it is, and I consider view justified.

The man who invented the disposable razor, the razor used by the yanks in WWI, was told after several failed attempts in the market "Make something the consumer has to throw away, so they keep coming back" *no I can nto CFR this, it was statement from a History channel show about the person*

[Daniel Peterson]

yes it is, and I consider view justified.

I don't.

I don't see my plumber, doctor, dentist, dental hygienist, grocer, mailman, or barber, nor the cable repairman, nor my neighbors, nor my family, nor any of my university colleagues, as motivated by "greed." Yet they are the people, along with tens of millions like them, who make up "the economy."

[JarMan]

Greed is how economics work. The ills of an economy can be trace to the exact same source, GREED.

By your reasoning Utah should be the greediest state since they are the most business friendly. Turns out Utahns rank very highly in charitable giving. You've been demonstrably wrong in almost every economic-related thing you've said in this thread. I think you need a new economic model because your current one is proving to be very deficient.

[frankenstein]

By your reasoning Utah should be the greediest state since they are the most business friendly. Turns out Utahns rank very highly in charitable giving. You've been demonstrably wrong in almost every economic-related thing you've said in this thread. I think you need a new economic model because your current one is proving to be very deficient.

You have created your own world concerning my posts and since you are the architect of that world, it is of little surprise, that in your opinion I am wrong.

why is there concern about printing more money? because the hungry hippos will see that there is are more marbles to gobble up so prices increase, which means wages increase, which means prices increase (because it would irresponsible not to maintain the bottom line), ad nauseum. the economy does not have a mind of its own, the economy is simply the manifestation of human valuation of a widget.

[Daniel Peterson]

You have created your own world concerning my posts and since you are the architect of that world, it is of little surprise, that in your opinion I am wrong.

There's another possibility -- that you're really wrong.

That one has my vote.

[frankenstein]

There's another possibility -- that you're really wrong.

That one has my vote.

really comes as no surprise that your opinion is such.

[Jeff K.]

Well I don't think we should be arguing about weather and so forth. I for one hated the weather in Utah. Much better in Seattle; but I am sure plenty disagree. We may as well start talking about the attractiveness of the women at this point

As for porn, I understand where the study has its flaws. However, as a state with such a high number of LDS members, I would expect it to be smack on the bottom compared to other states. We are talking about quite a divide here. The study does show that Utah had the highest number subscribers per 1000 broadband users. Would there be a better way?

As for crime, if the method (say violent crime per 1000 people) remains constant between states that are being compared, then how much of a difference are you really going to make? Why should violent crime count for more than sexual crime?

I work with statistics all the time. Admittedly, its in the context of neurobiology, but I still get the basics of these sorts of things.

As you have pointed out, the quality of the flaws are fairly strong. I personally would hesitate to use them given the lack of credibility they present.

[JarMan]

You have created your own world concerning my posts and since you are the architect of that world, it is of little surprise, that in your opinion I am wrong.

I've simply pointed out that your assumptions don't match reality. And I've provided good evidence. Dismissing it with the wave of a hand does nothing to advance your argument.

[frankenstein]

I've simply pointed out that your assumptions don't match reality. And I've provided good evidence. Dismissing it with the wave of a hand does nothing to advance your argument.

You have created your own world concerning my posts and since you are the architect of that world, it is of little surprise, that in your opinion I am wrong.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There's another possibility -- that you're really wrong.

That one has my vote.

It has my vote too.