Utah as a Place for Doing Business

[Eldwynn]

Right, cos low labour costs and cheap land clearly have everything to do with people showing up to work sober....

Wow, as someone who has worked at a blue collar job in Utah, this isn't the case. It's more likely to do with the amount of Hispanics working for minimum wage than it has for people showing up to work sober. If you have any data that gives being sober as a reason, I would love to see it. The article cited even gives most of the overlapping reasons I give.

I am sure I have worked far more blue collar jobs in Utah than most people in this board, and I am only 22. I worked for the largest Stouffers factory in the Midwest, and guess what? The amount of people that spoke English was probably 25-30%. This is of course until you looked at the administrative sector.

People show up to work drunk in Utah and get fired. People still lie, commit crimes, and rape in Salt Lake City. People still break into cars, abuse drugs, and do horrible things in Utah. I did loss prevention for Sears, and you would be surprised at who would actually steal. Mostly pregnant Mormon women. My high school near Provo had the worst heroin problem I have ever encountered in my life- and that includes the University of Utah and University of Washington. I was even a member at the time, and I remember students abusing on the way to seminary.

Utah is just like any other state. Sorry.

[Eldwynn]

It's the politicians of the last three decades (and especially the last 10 years) that have created this mess, and I'm not sure how they could generally be classified as "intellectuals". Certainly the ones that seem to create the most problems (and show the most intent to ignore the problems and allow them to grow) don't appear to be intellectually motivated.

Ultimately, it's the people of California who are to blame. And the day or reckoning will soon be at hand.

I have a friend that moved in with us up in Washington, he still gets unemployment quite legally from the State of California. With his VA check, he makes quite a bit of money. Unfortunately, he has no motivation to get a job here, because he would actually take a pay cut. As someone from Utah, unemployment laws confuse me. I guess what I am trying to say is: thanks for paying taxes.

[Stargazer]

I have a friend that moved in with us up in Washington, he still gets unemployment quite legally from the State of California. With his VA check, he makes quite a bit of money. Unfortunately, he has no motivation to get a job here, because he would actually take a pay cut. As someone from Utah, unemployment laws confuse me. I guess what I am trying to say is: thanks for paying taxes.

You're welcome!

[Daniel Peterson]

LOL. Here's the opening post with which I launched this thread:

Since I rely on anti-Mormon and ex-Mormon critics for my information, I've always understood that the Mormons have made Utah a kind of living hell.

Imagine my surprise, therefore, when I found out that the Morg had somehow gotten to the editors of Forbes magazine and induced them to write the following article:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/10/13/best-states-for-business-business-beltway-best-states.html

Here is my Malevolent Stalker's commentary, over at his compound, on my opening post:

For whatever reason, Dr. Peterson is strangely protective of Utah--and this goes well beyond simple pride in one's home state. He is practically a reactionary about it. If anyone so much as dares to utter one peep about the stultifying culture of Utah, or the standoffishness of the TBMs there, or the crummy business climate, etc., he erupts. By "erupt" I don't necessarily mean that he begins posting up an angry storm---he's more subtle than that. Suffice it to say that any bad-mouthing of Utah throws him into a tizzy. If he ever loses his job as a Mopologist, he could always find work as a Utahlogist.

If anybody cares to put together some specimens of my posting history, illustrating my "strange protectiveness" and "reactionary eruptions" on the subject of Utah, or catching me in a "tizzy," I would be interested in reading them. Thanks!

I am, by the way, a native Californian. I was born and raised there, earned my Ph.D. there, frequently visit there, still have my family (other than my wife and children) there, still own property there, and etc. My wife is there right now, through early next week. I'll be there next month.

[Pahoran]

Because a minimum wage that has always sat at the federal minimum, a pro business state government, and cheap land and energy costs have nothing to do with it.

Eldwynn, are you sure you replied to the right post?

A fellow says, "Utah is great because you can find lots of employees that are responsible, married folk that show up to work sober. On the downside, he said it wasn't so easy to find a good place to drink." I asked, "But was he able to connect the dots?" The dots being the connection between the sober population and the reduced availability of liquor outlets.

Not any dots about minimum wage, pro-business government, or capitalist lackeys of the imperialist running dogs ruthlessly exploiting the proletariat.

Are we there yet?

Regards,

Pahoran

[sansfoy]

I kind of have mixed feelings about my Montana being way down at #24. While it would be nice to have better job opportunities, if it improved too much, our population might increase. Then we wouldn't be the "Last, Best Place" anymore. One of the things that mates Montana the best place to live is our low population density. (also the best fresh water fishing, hunting, hiking, camping, and non-oceanic outdoor activities anywhere in the lower 48.)

Yours under the Big Sky oaks,

Nathair /|\

Good point. There are reasons other than "business" for living in a certain place. Note that Hawaii, Maine, and Vermont are all scraping the bottom, yet all of these are states where people make big personal sacrifices in order to move there. Also, Rhode Island. I took a job in Newport for 3 1/2 years and it was a wonderful experience.

Oh, and I own a business in Vermont and it's doing pretty well.

[krose]

Since I rely on anti-Mormon and ex-Mormon critics for my information, I've always understood that the Mormons have made Utah a kind of living hell.

I'm fairly confident that these information providers of yours do not have "negative climate to operate a business" very high on their list when they characterize the state as a "living hell."

I don't know any of your "anti" friends, but as a Utah "ex" myself, I would guess that they are much more concerned about personal freedom than corporate economic freedom. I doubt that your critical advisors complain that much about regulations and taxes on business, or even the cost of labor. They are more likely to criticize state regulations of their personal behavior, as well as their treatment (real or perceived) by their neighbors.

[Jeff K.]

It's the politicians of the last three decades (and especially the last 10 years) that have created this mess, and I'm not sure how they could generally be classified as "intellectuals". Certainly the ones that seem to create the most problems (and show the most intent to ignore the problems and allow them to grow) don't appear to be intellectually motivated.

Ultimately, it's the people of California who are to blame. And the day or reckoning will soon be at hand.

Psuedo intellectuals.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have a friend that moved in with us up in Washington, he still gets unemployment quite legally from the State of California. With his VA check, he makes quite a bit of money. Unfortunately, he has no motivation to get a job here, because he would actually take a pay cut. As someone from Utah, unemployment laws confuse me. I guess what I am trying to say is: thanks for paying taxes.

Seriously dude, that is what you want to thank people for?.....................

Self edit, about to go into a huge rant of a political nature.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Utah is just like any other state. Sorry.

Do you have anything more than anecdotal evidence?

I worked at GC for 5 years. The most common drug was pot and only a handful of people smoked it and regular cigarettes, and of course lots of alcohol. No one did the devils drug (heroin) as they called it. I knew only one person that was a tweeker, that is he used meth and other tweeky drugs.

I only had a few case of theft. It simply did not happen. I have no idea if they were LDS or not, it really never came up in the converstation.

No one has aruged that Utah was free from the stigmas that affected other states.

BTW what does a pregnant mormon mother look like? And you could determine that they were Mormon and active how?

[frankenstein]

nathair stargazer you clearly were looking to be insulted. I never made any statements about how terrible it is to live in Utah.

I only made statements that the what the data means would be more telling. And depending on what the data means the people of Utah shouldn't be too jubilent in claiming "We're #1" incase you missed it, I listed a couple of things that Texas ranked #1 in, and a county I lived in that ranked #1.

since you missed my point.

The poll is about what is good for business, factors considered in part were cost, and regulation. Low wages and lack of regulations mean more profitability for the company, add on top of that an enviroment that is pro business and abundance of replacements and you get a situation that is bad for a labor force all around.

the gov of utah in on record as stating he is makes regulatory decision based on the a companies bottom line.

[thesometimesaint]

stargazer:

Keep telling yourself that as 10's of thousand of factories and the good paying jobs they produce go with them to China and India.

[JarMan]

what the actually data means would be more telling. It is important to remember that this poll is about what is good for business, not about what is good for the labor force. and what is good for business is not generally good for the labor force.

Really???????

Educated labor, Yes, I believe that, many people who grew up in Utah do not want to leave Utah and earn and degree in Utah, and many people who leave Utah leave only for education and return, so I have no doubt there is a ready educated labor force. The high education rate can be attributed to the LDS Church emphasis on earning an education.

How nice of you to say.

However, what is the pay? How does the average salary and cost of living in Utah compare to the rest of the US? COST is one of the criteria, if you, have a desperate labor force who are unwilling to move, then an employer can pay a low wage/salary.

Since you seem to think there is an inverse relationship between what is good for business and what is good for employers, then by your reasoning Utah should be very near the bottom in wages. So let's look at some actual numbers. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, Utah ranks #7 in median income from 2008 to 2009 at $60,396. The median U.S. income by comparison is $49,945. But you brought up cost of living, so let's adjust by 2010 second quarter cost of living numbers. It turns out that with that adjustment Utah moves up to NUMBER 1. That's right, NUMERO UNO! Your theory is not holding up against the evidence so far.

Environmental controls is also a criteria, and if cost is a criteria, then less environmental controls would mean less cost to the company, so although the following statement is just my assumption, it is probably not out of the ball park to say that a pro-business State is [not] going to very concerned about environmental things (Texas ranked 7 on the poll, and I can tell you Texas is not too concerned with environmental issue.)

It's very hard to quantitatively rate the effect of environmental controls, but in my experience Utah does an adequate job in this area. For the last 12 years I have worked for the State of Utah in an agency that regulates water. I interact with several other regulatory agencies of state, local, and federal government. In my experience the natural resources of the state are, for the most part, managed in a way that protects health and safety of individuals. But you made the inference that being business friendly means being unfriendly to the environment. It's up to you to now provide some evidence to support the view that Utah's environment is not adequately protected because of its friendliness to business. This is a CFR.

"We want to make sure we don't have any nonsensical regulations that inhibit the private sector from expanding and having a profitable bottom line," yes the all mighty dollar. It is probably true that Utah is not very Union friendly, which means, once again, a desperate labor force unwilling to move will take what ever they are offered without question.

Okay, two bits to address here. First of all, the fact that Utah is not highly unionized is not a problem for Utah workers. In case you missed it, Utah ranks NUMBER 1 in cost of living adjusted median salary. Perhaps you should rethink the value of unions based on this information.

Second, is your unsupported assertion that Utahns are unwilling to move to take work outside the state. Once again, do you have any evidence for this? This is another CFR. I know by personal experience over the past several years of several people who have moved out of state for a job. I've considered it myself in order to be closer to family, but the truth is, the best job I can find right now is in Utah. So while you think people are sacrificing economically to stay in Utah for personal reasons, my own experience is that I am sacrificing personal things for economic reasons to stay in Utah.

Bottom line, I don't think working people of Utah should be all too happy, a pro business environment means that the worker is getting less than the short end of the stick.

Well it's a good thing that economic things don't work the way you THINK they should.

[Nathair/|\]

nathair stargazer you clearly were looking to be insulted. I never made any statements about how terrible it is to live in Utah.

I only made statements that the what the data means would be more telling. And depending on what the data means the people of Utah shouldn't be too jubilent in claiming "We're #1" incase you missed it, I listed a couple of things that Texas ranked #1 in, and a county I lived in that ranked #1.

since you missed my point.

The poll is about what is good for business, factors considered in part were cost, and regulation. Low wages and lack of regulations mean more profitability for the company, add on top of that an enviroment that is pro business and abundance of replacements and you get a situation that is bad for a labor force all around.

the gov of utah in on record as stating he is makes regulatory decision based on the a companies bottom line.

Did you not say "what is good for business is not generally good for the labor force?" The whole point of my response was to refute that allegation.

Yours under the precise oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Daniel Peterson]

Some people seem to imagine that it's a zero-sum game, that if management or owners are doing well laborers must be suffering.

This isn't true. If the pie is expanding, everybody can do well.

Carried to its logical conclusion, though, the notion would seem to mean that management/owners will do best when laborers get nothing (which is plainly false, since the laborers would long since have quit or died) and that laborers will do best when management/employers make no profits (which is obviously untrue, since, if capital earns no profit, rational capitalists will take their money back and invest it where they can earn something; people without disposable wealth don't hire others or create jobs).

[Vance]

I remember years ago, while working a graveyard shift out at the Kennecot refinery, listening to a local radio talk show. A caller called in to explain how he loved the clean streets, low crime rate, friendly/courteous people, but he just couldn't stand the Mormon influence.

Later another individual called in to recommend that all the Mormon pack up and move somewhere to be away from everybody else.

[Jeff K.]

Some people seem to imagine that it's a zero-sum game, that if management or owners are doing well laborers must be suffering.

This isn't true. If the pie is expanding, everybody can do well.

Carried to its logical conclusion, though, the notion would seem to mean that management/owners will do best when laborers get nothing (which is plainly false, since the laborers would long since have quit or died) and that laborers will do best when management/employers make no profits (which is obviously untrue, since, if capital earns no profit, rational capitalists will take their money back and invest it where they can earn something; people without disposable wealth don't hire others or create jobs).

Part of Adam Smith's view of "universal opulence" He coined the phrase mercantilism too.

[frankenstein]

jarman, I have a CFR for you, please demonstrate how any CFR you requested concerns a statement that was not already prefaced with a qualification that a reasonable person would not understand as being an obvious statement that the statement you cfr is an opinion or that a reasonably person could not understand as an obvious admission that the statement may not be true.

also

please demonstrate where I made concerning the adequacy of something. it seem you are too busy playing a martyr to understand the quite obvious statements such as

"although the following may not be true, it probably is not out of ball park [unreasonable]"

I will not address your CFRs, and if you want to know why re-read the opening sentence to this post and then go and re-read my posts in this thread.

[frankenstein]

nathari, stargaze et al, I rephrase something

Just because something is good for business does not necessarily mean said something is good for the employee or that it is even good for the society.

[scooby]

nevermind

[Daniel Peterson]

Part of Adam Smith's view of "universal opulence" He coined the phrase mercantilism too.

I have a bust of Adam Smith at my desk.

He was right.

[Stargazer]

stargazer:

Keep telling yourself that as 10's of thousand of factories and the good paying jobs they produce go with them to China and India.

???

Telling myself what? Sorry, didn't think I commented on this subject. Enlighten me please?

[Eldwynn]

Do you have anything more than anecdotal evidence?

I worked at GC for 5 years. The most common drug was pot and only a handful of people smoked it and regular cigarettes, and of course lots of alcohol. No one did the devils drug (heroin) as they called it. I knew only one person that was a tweeker, that is he used meth and other tweeky drugs.

I only had a few case of theft. It simply did not happen. I have no idea if they were LDS or not, it really never came up in the converstation.

No one has aruged that Utah was free from the stigmas that affected other states.

BTW what does a pregnant mormon mother look like? And you could determine that they were Mormon and active how?

Underwear.

Utah is not the safest state; it only ranks 16:

http://www.walletpop.com/insurance/safest-states

Utah is number one porn consumer:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html

Number one prescription drug abuse:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070306/ai_n18722437/

Heroin use on the rise:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/article_9e4ff3d5-9d8d-5c4a-993f-db0ff3f230e4.html

You would expect Utah to lead the way with all three of those... yet it doesn't. My father grew up in Springville Utah (right next to provo) and a large majority of his childhood friends are dead because of drug abuse.

Everyone is a member of the church in Utah county.... of course not literally everyone, but I think the recent statistic is like 88%(I would imagine hispanic immigration is causing it to go down, but I have no clue). In my dad's time, I would imagine it was much higher.

The premise that Utah is some sort of holy place with impeccable morals just doesn't match the data. It's a normal state with normal problems. I daresay that some of these, like pornography, can be attributed because of the church. I would imagine that discussion is not allowed here though.

As the article D.P. linked states, the reasons for being number one in business are low cost of energy, educated labor force, etc. etc. It has little to do with the church's influence. Most of these companies moved here from other states, and I doubt it was because of mormons. It was because of money.

[Eldwynn]

Eldwynn, are you sure you replied to the right post?

A fellow says, "Utah is great because you can find lots of employees that are responsible, married folk that show up to work sober. On the downside, he said it wasn't so easy to find a good place to drink." I asked, "But was he able to connect the dots?" The dots being the connection between the sober population and the reduced availability of liquor outlets.

Not any dots about minimum wage, pro-business government, or capitalist lackeys of the imperialist running dogs ruthlessly exploiting the proletariat.

Are we there yet?

Regards,

Pahoran

I thought for some reason you were implying that the church's influence was the cause. I had a huge misunderstanding. Haha, you can pretty much ignore all my posts in the thread.

[JarMan]

frankenstein,

I guess you are admitting, then, that you really have no idea how economics works. Since that is the case, let me give you some more examples to help you understand. Virginia, who was number 2 on the Forbes list is - surprise, surprise - number two in median salary. North Carolina, at third on the Forbes list, seems to be an outlier at 38th in income. Colorado is fourth on the list and third in salary. Washington, who is fifth on the list, is sixth in salary.

But let's look at the other end of the spectrum, too. Here are the bottom five. Maine is 50th on the Forbes list and 46th in median salary. Rhode Island is 49th on the list and 42nd in salary. Mississippi is 48th and 49th respectively. Michigan, at 47th is a bit of an outlier being 21st in salary. Then there's Hawaii that is 46th on the Forbes list and number 50 in salary.

But keep on throwing out unsupportable statements that fit your view of the world (just make sure you adequately qualify them first). One of these times you may actually get lucky. This is not one of those times.