Will Schryver's Book of Abraham talk

[mapman]

I was very impressed with the presentation. Now that I think about it, it makes so much more sense than the other theories. I hope Will plans on elaborating more on Pure Language.

Also, is there somewhere where there is a transcription of the papers online?

[USU78]

I was very impressed with the presentation. Now that I think about it, it makes so much more sense than the other theories. I hope Will plans on elaborating more on Pure Language.

Also, is there somewhere where there is a transcription of the papers online?

Will will be announcing more later . . . and he gave a hint or three during today's presentation.

[poulsenll]

I was very impressed with the presentation. Now that I think about it, it makes so much more sense than the other theories. I hope Will plans on elaborating more on Pure Language.

Also, is there somewhere where there is a transcription of the papers online?

yes

http://vimeo.com/user439270/videos

Larry P

[USU78]

6. Why would they develop a cipher to encrypt revelations that were given three years earlier (D&C 76 & 88)?

You missed the point, jm. The point was, they were coming up with an encryption to use for other purposes, not hide things already known.

Remember . . . they believed the Second Coming was happening any day, and they might well need a diplomatic cipher in order to engage in secret correspondence and whatnot in the future as part of the political Kingdom of G-d. It wasn't just the then present dangers in Kirtland . . . and the continuing problems in Missouri . . . that were on their minds.

They weren't encrypting what was already published.

That was the whole point. Come on out of the trees so you can see the tree you're looking at.

[selek]

You missed the point, jm. The point was, they were coming up with an encryption to use for other purposes, not hide things already known.

Remember . . . they believed the Second Coming was happening any day, and they might well need a diplomatic cipher in order to engage in secret correspondence and whatnot in the future as part of the political Kingdom of G-d. It wasn't just the then present dangers in Kirtland . . . and the continuing problems in Missouri . . . that were on their minds.

They weren't encrypting what was already published.

That was the whole point. Come on out of the trees so you can see the tree you're looking at.

More to the point, they may have already begun using that cipher for that purpose.

During WWII, the Allies used coded transmissions placed in plain text news broadcasts to communicate with the European Underground and special forces combatants.

The statements as broadcast were perfectly innocuous- unless you knew the special meaning assigned to them.

As the Times and Seasons were being carried into places and areas that Joseph and his inner circle could not go.....

...it is conceivable that Joseph and his friends might have been hiding a message in plain sight- one that would not be recognized unless you knew the full meaning and import of the characters.

Dagnabit! Where's Dan Brown when you need him!?!?!

Will- masterful presentation.

In the words of my cipheric forebearers- Bravo Zulu!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Done watching it.

Beautiful photos. The KEP never looked so good. If only they were all available to the public.

I am not convinced that Smith and his scribes considered the Alphabet and Grammar manuscripts to be used as a cipher.

1. For starters, Joseph quotes from the GAEL in his letter to Bennet, published in the Times and Seasons:

Doh, I guess you were not paying attention.

Particularly about there not being any egyptian characters on the GAEL. There goes that theory. Another one rides the bus. Ha ha. Another one rides the bus, and another one, and another one and another one rides the bus.

[LeSellers]

I begin to wonder if there is any connection between this sort of cypher (for encryption) and the Deseret Alphabet decades later (for simplification of English orthography and teaching non-speakers to speak and "read" the language).

There are several of the characters that appear similar (but none, as far as I can tell, that are exactly the same). Deseret is a phonemical alphabet: it has no word symbols (although, e.g., the phoneme "th" stands for "the", with the schwa simply "swallowed" entirely), much less whole phrases or sentences.

Yet many of the symbols have this odd "family resemblance".

I'm not hypothesizing here, just wondering. I do not have the resources (especially access to the documents) to do anything more than wonder, so I suppose this mental itch will go unscratched until I meet Brother Brigham and some of the others from the period at another time and in another place.

Lehi

[USU78]

I begin to wonder if there is any connection between this sort of cypher (for encryption) and the Deseret Alphabet decades later (for simplification of English orthography and teaching non-speakers to speak and "read" the language).

There are several of the characters that appear similar (but none, as far as I can tell, that are exactly the same). Deseret is a phonemical alphabet: it has no word symbols (although, e.g., the phoneme "th" stands for "the", with the schwa simply "swallowed" entirely), much less whole phrases or sentences.

Yet many of the symbols have this odd "family resemblance".

I'm not hypothesizing here, just wondering. I do not have the resources (especially access to the documents) to do anything more than wonder, so I suppose this mental itch will go unscratched until I meet Brother Brigham and some of the others from the period at another time and in another place.

Will thinks so, but the relationship is apparently more thematic than specific: there were only a few correspondences between the symbols chosen by Phelps, et al. and those chosen under BY's leadership much later. This question was asked by a couple of people in the Q&A after the presentation today.

[poulsenll]

I begin to wonder if there is any connection between this sort of cypher (for encryption) and the Deseret Alphabet decades later (for simplification of English orthography and teaching non-speakers to speak and "read" the language).

There are several of the characters that appear similar (but none, as far as I can tell, that are exactly the same). Deseret is a phonemical alphabet: it has no word symbols (although, e.g., the phoneme "th" stands for "the", with the schwa simply "swallowed" entirely), much less whole phrases or sentences.

Yet many of the symbols have this odd "family resemblance".

I'm not hypothesizing here, just wondering. I do not have the resources (especially access to the documents) to do anything more than wonder, so I suppose this mental itch will go unscratched until I meet Brother Brigham and some of the others from the period at another time and in another place.

Lehi

One of the questions asked was whether there was any relationship with the deseret alphabet and the answer was probably.

Larry P

[wenglund]

Good people,

I just returned from attending half of todays FAIR session. And I must tell you that at the very least, Will's presentation has and will stur some great discussion. In fact, following the presentation, I had the fortune of talking things over with Chris Smith and Narrator and Don Bradly and others--Will stepped in for a few brief comments (the BackyardProfessor took videos of portions of the discussion, and he promises to upload it to his Youtube website sometime this weekend).

Understandably, the critics weren't convinced, and that is okay. It took me several viewings for it all to sink in, and even as I watched the presentation in person today, I made certain informative connections that I hadn't before. There is a lot to absorb

Chris did compliment the presentation as an interesting "outside-the-box" theory. Only time will tell if the presentation ends up changing the game for everyone--there may even be some apologist who weren't entirely ready to give up on the old paradigm, and that's okay too.

I didn't get to see Gee's presentation because I was in a very lengthy, but friendly and enjoyable and passionate discussion with Darin regarding William Duncan's excellent talk on "Religion in the Legal Controversy Over Marriage" (surprised? LOL). So, I will have to wait until it is published before learning what was said.

I wish you all could have been there.

Let the discussion continue...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LeSellers]

One of the questions asked was whether there was any relationship with the deseret alphabet and the answer was probably.

No questions that I could find, so it's no wonder I didn't hear it. Thanks for the pointer.

At least I can claim some sort of resolution, probably.

And, I guess I can claim a bit of scientific curiosity, too.

Lehi

[poulsenll]

No questions that I could find, so it's no wonder I didn't hear it. Thanks for the pointer.

At least I can claim some sort of resolution, probably.

And, I guess I can claim a bit of scientific curiosity, too.

Lehi

The questions were at the end of the live presentation and were not included in the video that was prepared before the conference talk was given.

Larry P

[jmordecai]

You missed the point, jm. The point was, they were coming up with an encryption to use for other purposes, not hide things already known.

Remember . . . they believed the Second Coming was happening any day, and they might well need a diplomatic cipher in order to engage in secret correspondence and whatnot in the future as part of the political Kingdom of G-d. It wasn't just the then present dangers in Kirtland . . . and the continuing problems in Missouri . . . that were on their minds.

They weren't encrypting what was already published.

That was the whole point. Come on out of the trees so you can see the tree you're looking at.

So if they wanted to discuss Queen Kau tou mun, they would use the symbol on page 3

Or the star Limdi, they would use the symbol on page 34

Or if they wanted to discuss the king of Hell "Dah-Hah dees" use the symbol on page 29

If one wanted to say "I saw five women" that symbol is on page 27

Or if they wanted to say "The land which was discovered under water by a women" that symbol is on page 18

In the chance they wanted to say "a lineage with whom a record of the father was intrusted[sic] by tradition of Ham, and according to the tradition the their elders, by whom also the tradition of the art of embalming was kept" that symbol on page 4

Got it.

Doh, I guess you were not paying attention.

Particularly about there not being any egyptian characters on the GAEL. There goes that theory. Another one rides the bus. Ha ha. Another one rides the bus, and another one, and another one and another one rides the bus.

I'll have to check, but I believe there are symbol(s) from JSP I in the GAEL. Anyhow, Joseph didn't use the symbols, rather he quoted the words and definitions from the GAEL and explained to those not privy to his cipher project that those words were indeed Egyptian.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Inlight of not being able to post in the pundits forum, I think it really strange that Brent's only criticism is on some inane point.

I thought that the presentation was really well done and I am delighted to learn how these all fit together. I am sure that some one might find a small hole or 2 in Will's presentation. But it seems that the main thrust of the argument is sound.

[USU78]

Inlight of not being able to post in the pundits forum, I think it really strange that Brent's only criticism is on some inane point.

I thought that the presentation was really well done and I am delighted to learn how these all fit together. I am sure that some one might find a small hole or 2 in Will's presentation. But it seems that the main thrust of the argument is sound.

A tantrum is always to be preferred in the face of sudden irrelevance.

USU "Taggart got it exactly right" 78

[USU78]

So if they wanted to discuss Queen Kau tou mun, they would use the symbol on page 3

Or the star Limdi, they would use the symbol on page 34

Or if they wanted to discuss the king of Hell "Dah-Hah dees" use the symbol on page 29

If one wanted to say "I saw five women" that symbol is on page 27

Or if they wanted to say "The land which was discovered under water by a women" that symbol is on page 18

In the chance they wanted to say "a lineage with whom a record of the father was intrusted[sic] by tradition of Ham, and according to the tradition the their elders, by whom also the tradition of the art of embalming was kept" that symbol on page 4

Got it.

The effort was quickly abandoned, wasn't it?

Maybe you just put your finger on why it wasn't a particularly useful or effective cipher.

JSJr was the first to admit he was still very much a "rough stone rolling."

Maybe this whole KEP project was a chunk that got broken off and left behind.

USU "AND and dang good thing, too" 78

[Hyrum Page]

Just finished watching Will's presentation. Wow!!! Fantastic stuff. Kudos to you Will. I was skeptical that you had really managed to make a "game changer," but you pulled it off! Excellent work and kudos to you.

[Daniel Peterson]

For those who might be interested, there's a nearly-five-minute video interview with Will Schryver regarding his FAIR presentation on the Mormon Times Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/mormontimes

[DonBradley]

My impressions...

I found Will's presentation absolutely fascinating. His approach in organizing the material was systematic, and his arguments for a cipher, and particularly a Masonically influenced cipher, were the most intriguing part--that part was a definite "wow."

I think there is something to the cipher connection. That alone would not, I don't think, validate Will's whole thesis or set of conclusions, but is, in itself, a substantial contribution to the ongoing discussion. Several questions occurred to me during the discussion, things that seem to fit oddly with his data. And I still multiple lines of evidence for a Nauvoo translation of some of the Book of Abraham text.

One thing Will saw as key, and that I see as key as well, is establishing the dependence of the Alphabet and Grammar documents on the Book of Abraham text. His arguments on this were laid out rapid-fire and weren't entirely clear to me. They certainly do appear to establish dependence (or intertextuality), but I couldn't follow how they would establish that direction of dependence. To make the argument an entire success will require nailing this down.

I would imagine there are sufficiently powerful text-critical tools to settle such questions. I'll certainly look forward to Will's fuller presentation of his analysis in print, and to the discussion that will follow. Despite my questions I gave Will a standing ovation. His work was systematic, innovative, and just really cool. It is a game changer because it will, at the very least, reshape a good deal of the discussion going forward.

I enjoyed meeting Will and found him soft-spoken and thoughtful, and not anything like he is portrayed by his detractors online.

It was also fun meeting David Bokovoy (at last!) and others such as Maklelan, Deborah, USU78, Wade, Scott Lloyd, and Droopy. And I met Brian Hauglid and found him a capital person and capital scholar. I was very much rewarded for attending FAIR, and particularly Will's presentation, and will certainly be back.

Don

[oMtonic]

For those who might be interested, there's a nearly-five-minute video interview with Will Schryver regarding his FAIR presentation on the Mormon Times Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/mormontimes

Thank you for posting this, Dr. Peterson. It certainly helps to hear it explained again and in a different way in order to better grasp some of the important aspects of Will's presentation. I find the beginning of the video to be hilarious.

Edit:

I have not done so yet but wish to now--

Will: Congratulations on a fantastic presentation! Bravo!

[Greg Smith]

I enjoyed meeting Will and found him soft-spoken and thoughtful, and not anything like he is portrayed by his detractors online.

Will's detractors on-line are not known for either their charity or accuracy.

GLS

[cdowis]

deleted

[Deborah]

Not really knowing what all the KEP controversy was about, and frankly not interested, what Will was talking about was going over my head until the end when it all clicked together in that Aha moment where everything is clear. His study makes so much sense that you can bet the critics will pounce on it severely as their very intellects are at stake in the debate.

[HiJolly]

The presentation made a lot of sense from the viewpoint of masonic influence with the brethren, and masonic ciphers already engaged in. For example, the Nauvoo temple record book. It all clicked very nicely.

I sat next to an Arabic language expert (military) and he felt it made sense to him as well, but of course on different grounds.

Nice job, Will!

HiJolly

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'll have to check, but I believe there are symbol(s) from JSP I in the GAEL. Anyhow, Joseph didn't use the symbols, rather he quoted the words and definitions from the GAEL and explained to those not privy to his cipher project that those words were indeed Egyptian.

I need to correct what I thought I heard Will say. He said that "almost no egyptian characters from the papyri were on the GAEL". If it were a translation as the critics assert, why are ther almost no egyptian characters on the GAEL. That is what I would like to see a response to.