On being called "Mormons"

[Nathair/|\]

No, but if you say it enough times it may make sense to you. You believe in magic and seer stones... I don't. The point isn't that Mormons worship Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is defined by the "restored" Mormon doctrine that only Mormons believe in... that's why they're called "Mormons" by definition.

Let me try again. Are daisies and roses both flowers?

Yours under the baby stepping oaks,

Nathair/|\

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You have still failed to acknowledge the CFR data you asked for. I am not going to continue to jump through hoops while you ignore the response and ask for more in an obvious ploy to just make it too hard to respond. Note that no Mormon has acknowledge the data posted... wonder why? Do you agree with the following: (insert response to data posted here)

Stop it thews. I fully acknowledged you answering my CFR. What did I say in responce to it? I bet you did not even read it. Prove me wrong.

Please go back and tell me what I wrote about your first CFR.

BTW you simply posted a bunch of quotes that don't remotly address what the good doctor brought up.

[amo]

I'd love to be called "Saint", or "LDS" -and hence "Christian", according to the Scriptures- by the THOUSANDS of the so different existing EVANGELICAL SECTS and other congregations and people around the world, but, I know that the day this happens they will realize that they have walked he wrong path, so, until then, I just try to make sure they, down deep, know the truth.

Amo

[Nemesis]

Is all I have to say is Thews = 6mths.

Nemesis

[LeSellers]

Based on what... Mormon doctrine?

No, based on the dictionary. You have used one before, have you not?

[Pahoran]

It's a pity that Thews has gone, since he can't respond. However, some points need to be addressed.

Based on what... Mormon doctrine? That's the point... I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God based on many failed God tests and am a Christian. Why is it, you as a Mormon have the right to imply I accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God while rejecting Mormon doctrine? You didn't answer my question: Does the definition of Christianity accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?

The "definition of Christianity" is agnostic on that question. Many Christians accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. Some Christians reject him as a prophet of God. Most Christians have never given the question any thought at all; including many of those who reject him.

Your parallel logic and circular reasoning makes sense to you, which appeases your cognitive dissonance IMO, but the street doesn't go both ways and you just can't see why. If Mormons = Christians, then Christians = Mormons.

This is truly idiotic. Truly.

In fact, it has to be the single most idiotic anti-Mormon argument ever attempted.

If squares = quadrilaterals, then quadrilaterals = squares. True or false?

If Americans = humans, then humans = Americans. True or false?

If rabbits = mammals, then mammals = rabbits. True or false?

If sculpture = art, then art = sculpture. True or false?

If Canon in D by Johann Pachelbel = music, then music = Canon in D by Johann Pachelbel. True or false?

The fact is that the set of all squares is a subset of the set of all quadrilaterals; all squares are quadrilaterals, but a great many quadrilaterals are not squares. Ditto with every one of the other examples. And in exactly the same way all Mormons are Christians, but not all Christians are Mormons. That's how subsets and supersets work.

Perhaps Thews ought to be encouraged to spend some of his newly spare time learning about basic logic. Some maths would be useful too. Set theory for a start; and perhaps some number theory as well. There is a thread on the sty, just a few months old, in which Thews insisted that an imprecise measurement of a finite quantity => an infinite number. He stubbornly and dogmatically insisted on this ridiculous argument, even after Tarski (who, however faulty his views on Mormon things may be, unquestionably knows his onions when it comes to mathematics) tried in vain to correct him.

I am a Christian who is not a Mormon, beause I reject Mormon doctrine. How can you claim "Christianity" accpets Mormon doctrine when Joseph Smith claimed all Christian churches were wrong? Please define your logic.

Because "Christian churches are wrong" != "I reject Christianity." Rather, Joseph's very consistent teaching was that the Christian churches of the day were wrong because they had rejected the pure, original Christianity revealed by Christ and taught by the apostles.

Now this is clearly a "controversial question" and it is possible to be a devout Christian and disagree with him; just as it is possible to be an equally devout Christian and agree with him. But the point is that saying "all churches are wrong" does not entail that Christianity is wrong, any more than "all the teams in the league played badly this season" entails that baseball is not a sport.

Thews has several times flung this handful of anti-Mormon prooftexts in our faces, as if they somehow "prove" that Mormonism is not Christian:

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

"Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

"The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

"I spoke of the impropriety of turning away from the truth, and going after a people so destitute of righteousness as the Methodists." (Joseph Smith, DHC 2:319)

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best." (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

"...brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament....With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

The answer: he's wrong. They aren't even relevant to the question. At all.

Since he's not here to reiterate his usual technique, I shall do it for him: "That's not an answer! Why do you reject the data?"

Answer: I don't "reject the data." That is brazenly false. I say that the data is irrelevant to the question under discussion.

Regards,

Pahoran