On being called "Mormons"

[thews]

Thanks for answering my CFR.

You asked for it, so address it. What part of the data do you disagreew ith, or do you acknowledge it all to be correct?

It would seem that I mis-spoke. I knew this stuff, Yes Jesus did indeed says that all of the churches were wrong and that their creeds were an abomination. Sorry about that. Mistakes happen. Oh and sorry but 1st nephi 14:10 does not mention anything about the church of Christ being the LDS church. And that all other churches are of the devil. I think you should think on what those verse of scripture are really trying to say. Remember that a person taht is LDS can still belong to the church fo the devil.

You aren't making sense. I'm not claiming to state what Jesus says about what constitutes a Christian, but I did post a lot of data about what the Mormon leaders said about Christianity. You asked fo rthe data and I gave it to you. Can you give me a line-by-line on the data I provided, or are you again going to ask for a CR and then ignore it all only to ask for it again? What is your point?

What I really want is a definition of what a christian is from the bible. You claimed you could produce one. All you did was pull a wikipedia for a source and that is not the same as the bible.

I gave you the data you asked for and all you do is ask more diversion questions. What do you have to say about the factual data presented?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You asked for it, so address it. What part of the data do you disagreew ith, or do you acknowledge it all to be correct?

Yes, you did provider the CFR that I originally asked for.

You aren't making sense. I'm not claiming to state what Jesus says about what constitutes a Christian, but I did post a lot of data about what the Mormon leaders said about Christianity. You asked fo rthe data and I gave it to you. Can you give me a line-by-line on the data I provided, or are you again going to ask for a CR and then ignore it all only to ask for it again? What is your point?

You asserted that the bible has a defitintion of what a Christian is. I am asking for a refernce we the bible defines this. Not a wikiapedia article. That is what you provided earlier. Do you suppose that wikipedia is the same as the bible?

I gave you the data you asked for and all you do is ask more diversion questions. What do you have to say about the factual data presented?

Yes, and I told you that I mis-spoke about my CFR. Forgive me on that one point. Mistakes happen. I am asking for you to back up your assertion that the bible has a defintion for what a Christian is. There are no diversion questions involved.

[thews]

Yes, you did provider the CFR that I originally asked for.

You asserted that the bible has a defitintion of what a Christian is. I am asking for a refernce we the bible defines this. Not a wikiapedia article. That is what you provided earlier. Do you suppose that wikipedia is the same as the bible?

You have not addressed the data I presented, yet ask more questions. Do you disagree with the data posted or agree with it? Please reference the data before you ask more questions.

Yes, and I told you that I mis-spoke about my CFR. Forgive me on that one point. Mistakes happen. I am asking for you to back up your assertion that the bible has a defintion for what a Christian is. There are no diversion questions involved.

I'm asking you to stop asking me for CFR's if you're going to continue to ask more questions without addressing it. What I am saying is that the Mormon leaders stated that Christianity was wrong and Mormonism was correct. Would you agree?

[blackstrap]

The last time I counted there were over 2000 " Christian" churches .

Just for fun ( you can leave mormons out if you want) write down 20 doctrines of Christianity and then see for how many there is unanimity within the Christian community.

I'll start.

1. Baptism

thews likes to say that there are "Mormon doctrines" and there are " Christian doctrines" and they are not the same and yet in many areas we can find substantial agreement. Likewise there are some doctrines like the nature of the Godhead where Mormons hold very different opinions from the general Christian community. Yet within the "2000 + " there will be some who are more closely aligned with the Mormon thinking than with the majority. Who then are the Christians??

[thews]

The last time I counted there were over 2000 " Christian" churches .

Just for fun ( you can leave mormons out if you want) write down 20 doctrines of Christianity and then see for how many there is unanimity within the Christian community.

I'll start.

1. Baptism

thews likes to say that there are "Mormon doctrines" and there are " Christian doctrines" and they are not the same and yet in many areas we can find substantial agreement. Likewise there are some doctrines like the nature of the Godhead where Mormons hold very different opinions from the general Christian community. Yet within the "2000 + " there will be some who are more closely aligned with the Mormon thinking than with the majority. Who then are the Christians??

What part of only Mormons accept Mormon doctrine don't you get? The Book of Mormon is doctrine that only Mormons subscribe to, as is belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. The entire book is based on Joseph Smith claiming all other churches were wrong, so your point is as vague as it possibly can be. Can Anyone address the data posted and give me a reasonable answer regarding why Mormons would want to be know as anything other than LDS or Mormons?

[Dr. Jd]

What part of only Mormons accept Mormon doctrine don't you get? The Book of Mormon is doctrine that only Mormons subscribe to, as is belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. The entire book is based on Joseph Smith claiming all other churches were wrong, so your point is as vague as it possibly can be. Can Anyone address the data posted and give me a reasonable answer regarding why Mormons would want to be know as anything other than LDS or Mormons?

Listen I have no problem with you stating Mormons are the only ones that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, but you are wrong. Let me name a couple the Bahai's and the Community of Christ. Hey but keep talking one of these days you will be right about something, even a broken watch works twice a day. Now as to wanting to be considered Christian. This desire is based of our need to rectify the lie that we don't worship Christ. Trust me it has nothing to do with being numbered among the other Christian Churches in the world. We just desire all to know that faith in our Lord is the key to our religion.

[blackstrap]

The Book of Mormon is NOT doctrine. It presents doctrine, which the vast majority of Christians can agree with. The doctrines of Faith,Hope,and Charity are well presented in the B of M.So are the ideas of the resurrection and the atonement. If you have a quarrel with them then it is YOU who are not Christian.

There are other places where Joseph taught doctrines that you can quibble with but in the Book of Mormon not so much...

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

The last time I counted there were over 2000 " Christian" churches .

Just for fun ( you can leave mormons out if you want) write down 20 doctrines of Christianity and then see for how many there is unanimity within the Christian community.

I'll start.

1. Baptism

thews likes to say that there are "Mormon doctrines" and there are " Christian doctrines" and they are not the same and yet in many areas we can find substantial agreement. Likewise there are some doctrines like the nature of the Godhead where Mormons hold very different opinions from the general Christian community. Yet within the "2000 + " there will be some who are more closely aligned with the Mormon thinking than with the majority. Who then are the Christians??

Can't really say that. Several Christian groups practice baptism differently even among the protestants.

A better more unifying Christian doctrine: The Bible is the word of God. Just about every Christian agrees with that sentiment (albeit they use the same book and come to such differing opinions).

One might say the Lord's Supper, but even in that there is differences. Some use real wine, some grape juice, some believe that it becomes the literal body and blood of Christ, others believe that it is just symbolic.

And Blackstrap, 2000 Christian churches...a slight deviation from the mark, by about 28,000 churches. Pentecostalism by itself has over 10,000 deviations.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You have not addressed the data I presented, yet ask more questions. Do you disagree with the data posted or agree with it? Please reference the data before you ask more questions.

I'm asking you to stop asking me for CFR's if you're going to continue to ask more questions without addressing it. What I am saying is that the Mormon leaders stated that Christianity was wrong and Mormonism was correct. Would you agree?

I give up. I simply think you don't read my posts.

You have not defined what a "Christianity" is using the bible like you claimed. Mormonism is a subset of Christianity. Therfore your comment makes absolutly no sense. Christianity (which mormonism is a subset of) is wrong and Mormonism is correct. Good one Thews.

[Doctor Steuss]

What part of only Mormons accept Mormon doctrine don't you get?

The great thing about concise absolutist statements is they

[Sleeper Cell]

[LeSellers]

Can (or do) you not recognize a difference between the "doctrineS of Joseph Smith" and the "doctrine of Joseph Smith"?

The doctrines of the Restoration (or what you might call the doctrines of Joseph Smith) are the doctrines of the Bible. They are essentially identical. However, the doctrine of Joseph Smith (whatever that may be, for I have never heard of it) seems to be something related explicitly to Joseph Smith.

Lehi, this is what Mormons believe. Just because Mormons believe this, doesn't make it generic "Christian" theology. I have no issues with you believing this, but it is "Mormon" theology that not all Christians accept, but rather far from it, as all "Christians" reject the Mormon doctrine, which is why there's different definitions.

I did not claim it was "generic Christian doctrine".

Yes, we Saints (and others from many other Christian and quasi-Christian traditions) do believe this. So what? That does not mean it is not "Christian doctrine" because, by any reasonable, common definition, we Saints are Christians, and ours is a Christian faith.

The (what you are pleased to call, for some unfathomable reason) "doctrine of Joseph Smith" is not taught, mentioned, understood, preached, heard, whispered, dreamed of, nor spoken in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If, by this esoteric term, you mean the doctrine restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, then your claim that these doctrines are not biblical is an assertion you must defend. Because all of the doctrines taught by Joseph Smith are biblical. The Bible includes (although not always understood as such) salvific ordinances (primarily baptism, but others get veiled mention), the doctrine of Salvation for the Dead (including baptisms and other salvific ordinances), it includes missionary work, Priesthood, Church organization (including bishops

[Dr. Jd]

Some times I wonder if thews is a TBM, that comes on here to make antis look ignorant. I have seen a few of his threads and posts he usually post "data" (which he considers ground breaking) along with the data he makes several absolute statements and than challenges people to prove him wrong. Which happens soon after. But as each of his statements is proven wrong he ignores it, restates his fallacious comments, and says "look at my data."

So my guess is that thews is simply a TBM undercover.

[thews]

Listen I have no problem with you stating Mormons are the only ones that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, but you are wrong.

According to who? You? The point of the OP was the label and you've said nothing to address the data posted about what Mormon leaders said about Christianity.

Let me name a couple the Bahai's and the Community of Christ. Hey but keep talking one of these days you will be right about something, even a broken watch works twice a day. Now as to wanting to be considered Christian. This desire is based of our need to rectify the lie that we don't worship Christ.

Are you really a Dr. or just pretending, because I don't believe you are. I never said Mormons don't worhip Christ, but Jesus Christ is a different God (brother of Satan) and the Mormon faith accepts different doctrine.

Trust me it has nothing to do with being numbered among the other Christian Churches in the world. We just desire all to know that faith in our Lord is the key to our religion.

And again, back to the OP, if you accept Mormon doctrine and Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, that would define your beliefs as "Mormon" by definition, which is based on the doctrine you accept. What is your point, and why is no one willing to acknowledge teh CFR data posted? How about this one entry from Joseph Smith:

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

[thews]

Some times I wonder if thews is a TBM, that comes on here to make antis look ignorant. I have seen a few of his threads and posts he usually post "data" (which he considers ground breaking) along with the data he makes several absolute statements and than challenges people to prove him wrong. Which happens soon after. But as each of his statements is proven wrong he ignores it, restates his fallacious comments, and says "look at my data."

So my guess is that thews is simply a TBM undercover.

You're very wrong, but if you (or anyone else) wishes to acknowledge the data posted you may have an ounce of credibility.

"The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

"I spoke of the impropriety of turning away from the truth, and going after a people so destitute of righteousness as the Methodists." (Joseph Smith, DHC 2:319)

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best." (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

"...brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament....With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

[Dr. Jd]

Thews, how about you first recognize that you are wrong about your statement that only Mormons accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet.

[thews]

I did not claim it was "generic Christian doctrine".

Yes, we Saints (and others from many other Christian and quasi-Christian traditions) do believe this. So what? That does not mean it is not "Christian doctrine" because, by any reasonable, common definition, we Saints are Christians, and ours is a Christian faith.

Based on what... Mormon doctrine? That's the point... I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God based on many failed God tests and am a Christian. Why is it, you as a Mormon have the right to imply I accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God while rejecting Mormon doctrine? You didn't answer my question: Does the definition of Christianity accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?

The (what you are pleased to call, for some unfathomable reason) "doctrine of Joseph Smith" is not taught, mentioned, understood, preached, heard, whispered, dreamed of, nor spoken in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If, by this esoteric term, you mean the doctrine restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, then your claim that these doctrines are not biblical is an assertion you must defend. Because all of the doctrines taught by Joseph Smith are biblical. The Bible includes (although not always understood as such) salvific ordinances (primarily baptism, but others get veiled mention), the doctrine of Salvation for the Dead (including baptisms and other salvific ordinances), it includes missionary work, Priesthood, Church organization (including bishops

[Nathair/|\]

Sticks and stones Nathair... sinking to that level wasn't what I expected from you.

I apologize for implying you were a weasel, rather what I should have said is that your behavior is consistent with the principles presented in Scott Adams' (creator of Dilbert) Way of the Weasel. It is still entertaining, though.

Yours under the trickster oaks,

Nathair /|\

ps. just to put things in perspective, Nathair means Serpent.

[thews]

For the life of me, I cannot see why the term

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The great thing about concise absolutist statements is they

[Nathair/|\]

Based on what... Mormon doctrine? That's the point... I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God based on many failed God tests and am a Christian. Why is it, you as a Mormon have the right to imply I accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God while rejecting Mormon doctrine? You didn't answer my question: Does the definition of Christianity accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?

Thanks for proving my point, as what you definied is a "Mormon" by definition.

And again, you failed to acknowledge the CFR data posted. What did Joseph Smith mean when he said, "for they were all wrong":

Call yourself what you wish Lehi as I'm not in charge of the definition, but if you accept the Mormon doctrine of Joseph Smith that's what a "Mormon" is by definition. Ok... "Saints" if you need to delve into semantics. Would you please acknowledge the data, as you all tap dance around it.

I don't care what you call yourself. If you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and the doctrine of Joseph Smith brought to you through seer stones, then you would be a Mormon by definition. Why do you have an issue with that? What's wrong with claiming to be Mormon?

The main problem that many use Mormon to mean a subset of Non-Christian, to imply we don't worship Christ, when we see ourselves as a subset of Christianity. You are like a rose trying to say a daisy is not a flower. Is that clear enough?

Yours under the simplifying oaks,

Nathair /|\

[thews]

Thews conveniently forgot to post a responce to this post. I wonder why?

You have still failed to acknowledge the CFR data you asked for. I am not going to continue to jump through hoops while you ignore the response and ask for more in an obvious ploy to just make it too hard to respond. Note that no Mormon has acknowledge the data posted... wonder why? Do you agree with the following: (insert response to data posted here)

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

"Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

"The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

"I spoke of the impropriety of turning away from the truth, and going after a people so destitute of righteousness as the Methodists." (Joseph Smith, DHC 2:319)

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best." (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

"...brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament....With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

[thews]

The main problem that many use Mormon to mean a subset of Non-Christian, to imply we don't worship Christ, when we see ourselves as a subset of Christianity. You are like a rose trying to say a daisy is not a flower. Is that clear enough?

Yours under the simplifying oaks,

Nathair /|\

No, but if you say it enough times it may make sense to you. You believe in magic and seer stones... I don't. The point isn't that Mormons worship Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is defined by the "restored" Mormon doctrine that only Mormons believe in... that's why they're called "Mormons" by definition.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't care what you call yourself. If you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and the doctrine of Joseph Smith brought to you through seer stones, then you would be a Mormon by definition. Why do you have an issue with that? What's wrong with claiming to be Mormon?

Nothing it is the other parts of your diatrabes that we are having a problem with. Such as this.

What part of only Mormons accept Mormon doctrine don't you get?

The great thing about concise absolutist statements is they

[Dr. Jd]

As I said before when thews is proven wrong he simply says "look at the data." Thews I will respond to your "data" when you admit that your statements were wrong. A little humility is good for any Christian.