Mormonism and the United Firm

[mercyngrace]

The solution has already been provided, not by a genius (unless you include revelation and inspiration from God), but by millions of minds evolving over time: a free-market economy kept in healthy check by people living according to the precepts of the restored gospel. That is my vision of the LoC and how I strive to live it today.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

A free market economy is your solution to people not wanting to do home teaching?

[wenglund]

Wade,

You're starting in on the wrong person. I never suggest we abandon money or live in a commune. I was just trying to respond to mfbukowski's question since he directed it at me. MnG

Please, MnG, have a little mercy and gracy and charity for me. I wasn't starting in on you, but rather simply using your comment to bring up a general, reasonable point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mercyngrace]

What's a Relif Society ward closet? What's in it?

Where does the land come from for a ward garden?

I think your experience of what wards and members are willing to do is different from mine. I agree the garden is a great idea- I just don't know where to put it.

After some thinking about it, I would guess there are maybe 100 people in our stake who might be likely candidates to do this now or soon. (LOC) Maybe a dozen couples per ward and a few singles? So that figure would not include kids.

Are you thinking more or fewer?

A RS "ward closet" would be were people donate things they no longer need or have too much of. Clothes, appliances, household goods, food storage that needs rotating but isn't getting eaten by the family that purchased and stored it, etc. Then as people have needs, they can borrow from the closet. Instead of taking your stuff to Goodwill or Salvation Army, it gets stored for the members of the ward.

We used to have welfare farms or welfare projects, where did that land come from? In my stake we have members with land, I'd bet one of them would donate an acre. When I was a kid, my dad was the bishop and we kept bees and sold the honey as part of our welfare work. IIRC, a member donated land for that project.

As for numbers, I bet I could find 100 people willing to live the LOC without any trouble.

[mercyngrace]

Please, MnG, have a little mercy and gracy and charity for me. I wasn't starting in on you, but rather simply using your comment to bring up a general, reasonable point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For you? Never! (evil laugh)

I should've added a disclaiming emoticon so you'd know I wasn't really annoyed. I just wanted it clear that I was defending someone else's position rather than my own.

[wenglund]

A free market economy is your solution to people not wanting to do home teaching?

No. Like prayer and Sacrament Meeting talks and Sunday School lessons, I don't consider Home Teaching appropriate as a marketable service. But, for things that are appropriate (like manufacturing and retailing food, clothing, shelter, transportation, etc.), the solution is free market along with the other qualifyiers I mentioned.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

For you? Never! (evil laugh)

Now there's the LoC spirit!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mercyngrace]

No. Like prayer and Sacrament Meeting talks and Sunday School lessons, I don't consider Home Teaching appropriate as a marketable service. But, for things that are appropriate (like manufacturing and retailing food, clothing, shelter, transportation, etc.), the solution is free market along with the other qualifyiers I mentioned.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I know you've gotta keep beatin' that drum, Wade but I'm talking about the solution for people not being prepared to build Zion. What's the real solution for that?

We can go on about our daily lives just being converted ourselves and trying to draw closer to God, which is essentially not much different than yesterday or the day before. That's great. Now how do we move an entire people forward spiritually? How do we get people to 100% home teaching? And charity? And a willingness to serve without thought of recompense?

My PB says that I am to prepare the world for His coming. How do I do that, Wade, beyond my little plot of surburbia? How do I help people choose to consecrate their lives to God? I already shop at Wal-Mart. Now what?

[USU78]

A RS "ward closet" would be were people donate things they no longer need or have too much of. Clothes, appliances, household goods, food storage that needs rotating but isn't getting eaten by the family that purchased and stored it, etc. Then as people have needs, they can borrow from the closet.

So . . . you'd have local wards go into competition with the D.I., such that the jobs training and low-cost, used but cleaned-up items would now be unavailable?

[mercyngrace]

So . . . you'd have local wards go into competition with the D.I., such that the jobs training and low-cost, used but cleaned-up items would now be unavailable?

It's a worldwide church now USU, in case you missed the memo. LOL! We don't have a DI within 1500 miles... I hear it's even further for many members.

Edit: I thought competition was a mainstay of your economic theory! LOL!

[zerinus]

I have read your posts in this thread with interest, and I have done some thinking about it; and I don

[wenglund]

I know you've gotta keep beatin' that drum, Wade but I'm talking about the solution for people not being prepared to build Zion. What's the real solution for that?

Apart from the Holy Spirit doing its miraculous work on men's hearts, I think the edifying example of good people like you, evincing in your remarkable lives the inherent benefit to all in more fully living the precepts of the gospel, is as good of a solution as I have found. But, then, I am no genius.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

It's a worldwide church now USU, in case you missed the memo. LOL! We don't have a DI within 1500 miles... I hear it's even further for many members.

Well it's clear we live in different worlds- in LA finding an acre of land without a walmart on it would be a problem much less having someone donate a few million bucks to create a welfare farm. And there are DI's all over- well at least two or three within 50 miles, the closest being around 10 from where I live. No wonder I didn't know what a RS closet was!

So if we assume that each stake has 100 people willing to live the LOC now, what around 3,000 stakes in the whole church?

We put them all together that's about 300,000 adults with what- two kids per family, because we have some singles, some old folks like me - what's the average? So we probably have 500,000 people ready to go soon if not now?

That's a pretty good sized town. But we are to gather to our own stakes, so that is a whole different question.

I can see why a new city of 500,000 very culturally homogeneous people would scare any state it suddenly appeared in. So do we pay state income tax? That would be a positive. Do we contribute much to the local economy? Maybe- are we going to be self- sufficient? Probably not either

Will we be a political block? Can't answer that one on this thread, but I suspect we all know the answer.

How welcome would we be?

[Ahab]

Doctors are a scarce resource. There are not enough of them to meet the needs of society today.

Solution: More people can learn how to be a doctor, and thus meet the demand for doctors.

Maybe I didn't clarify my thoughts enough to you earlier when I talked about how the wealth of this world consists in it's natural resources + labor (people working) + skills/talents/abilities/intellect/charity, etc required to use those resources.

That's ALL we have to work with, and if there is anything lacking in our skills/talents/abilities/intellect/charity, etc to enable us to use resources, and even if there is a lack of resources lacking on this planet, God has the ability to help all of us with all that by either teaching us more about how to use resources, including how to use them as wisely as possible, as well as how to go get more resources from other places, including from other planets.

Do you dispute any of that? In particular, do you dispute that God can guide us in how to wisely and charitably allocate our resources for the good of us all?

If not, then what's the problem? I'm not claiming to have ALL of the answers in my own little bitty head, so why do you look to ME to solve all of the problems that you haven't figured out yet? God will be with us, and God will guide us in helping us know how to wisely allocate our resources while having charity for others besides our own individual selves.

I know that you could hypothesize that there will be no need for doctors because we will have complete Priesthood blessings and no one will ever be sick, get injured or require a heart transplant. However, give me my premise for the sake of advancing the discussion. (I'm watching C-SPAN and they're discussing O'bamaCare, so it's on my mind.)

Have you ever read the book or watched the movie called Cider House Rules?

If not, do you accept the premise that people can learn how to do things by having someone else teach them how to do things, including how to be a doctor, and without having to use some money to pay the person(s) who teach?

There is no substitute for a doctor. So how does one use this resource to the maximum effectiveness? A doctor cannot work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. But there is a potential need for just that. So, do we call on his Charity and expect him to work himself into the grave (which will limit the supply of doctors even more), or do we allocate that scarce resource in some way? I hope we would. But I can assure you that first-come, first-served, is not the most effective means of distributing this service. Those who would be served would be happy, but those whose needs were most intense, arriving later, would not be. The first would not even know of the others, or, doubtless, they would cede their position in the queue. But, as I said, they did not know, nor did the doctor.

The only way to resolve the shortage of doctors is to teach more people to be doctors, absent divine intervention where God does all the healing either all by himself or with the assistance of someone who has the priesthood. Teaching someone to be a doctor doesn't require any money, though, because it is possible for doctors to teach other people to be doctors without any need to give them any money. The fact that we use money today doesn't mean we need to use it.

Imagine what would happen if some doctors agreed to tutor at least one other person each in how to be a doctor, by allowing them to watch what they do with some time alloted for answering some questions while offering to do all of that out of the charity of their hearts, and with those people then trained as doctors then going out and doing what those doctors had taught them . Can you imagine that? If you can, can you also imagine all of those doctors not even asking at least some of their patients to pay them any money to doctor them up, with all of that work done out of the charity of their hearts? If you can imagine that, can you also imagine a snow ball effect as the medicine/drug suppliers, and medical equipment suppliers, and medical building suppliers, and various other people in the medical profession stopped asking for any money from at least some of the people they helped, with medical care no longer being something that people needed to have money to get? Imagine a doctor being a doctor simply because he wanted to be a doctor, without any regard for money at all. Imagine that!

That's just one profession that could be profoundly affected by no longer needing to have money to access those services and products, with charity being the basis for providing those services and products, and ALL of the other people on this planet could follow suit by no longer charging any money to do what they can do. Farmers farming and distribuing their products to others without charging any money. Clothing manufacturers producting clothing and distributing their products without charge.

Sure, each of those people who work in those industries would still need other things that they aren't producing themselves, but each of those industries could share their resources with each other and without charging anyone any money.

Charity is not a mechanism for allocating scarce resources.

I believe it is, and the fact that you don't agree with me doesn't mean I no longer believe it.

The price structure of the free market is and has proven itself for millennia.

Oh, so that's why our economic situation is in the situation that it is in now.

It's nice to know what the problem is. Thank you.

[Ahab]

Heck there's no money anyway. No incentive for anybody to do anything.

Instead of doing something for someone else because he (or she) will pay you some money to do that particular form of service, why not just do what you can do to contribute to that other person's happiness without charging them any money?

I know you have needs and desires too, but other people could follow your example and also do things for you without charging you any money, and together you could all have everything you need, with each of you helping each other.

THOSE are the type of people that I want to be with in Zion. Can you visualize the type of person I am talking about?

Or is it asking too much for you to understand that?

[wenglund]

Instead of doing something for someone else because he (or she) will pay you some money to do that particular form of service, why not just do what you can do to contribute to that other person's happiness without charging them any money?

I know you have needs and desires too, but other people could follow your example and also do things for you without charging you any money, and together you could all have everything you need, with each of you helping each other.

THOSE are the type of people that I want to be with in Zion. Can you visualize the type of person I am talking about?

Or is it asking too much for you to understand that?

This is a nice reason to do things. But, it is terribly inefficient. I am not sure why it would make sense to go this route rather than continuing with the far more efficient monitary system, particularly if people were to no longer have a love for money.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Ahab]

But don

[LeSellers]

Forget the other 30 or so pages of pontifications because this puts it all into perspective and in a nutshell.

Can't speak for others, of course, but I never pontificate.

However, the question remains unanswered: How will a Zion society allocate scarce resources so as to maximize the happiness of all of her citizens? (Alternatively, what evidence is there that resources will not be scarce in a Zion society, or even in the Millennium?)

Apparently, Ahab has tacitly conceded the point, but others seem to have taken the same position, while not providing any support for it.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I'm focusing on the negative aspects of money because I can see how those negative aspects account for the situation the world is in now, in general. I've already stated that there are good ways that people can use money, but you have to have money to be able to use it, so if you don't have it, then what?

You create happiness for others in ways they will be pleased to trade their money for your services. That's how all money is earned, and it should be no different for one than for another.

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

THOSE are the type of people that I want to be with in Zion. Can you visualize the type of person I am talking about?

If you have read my posts you will see that I have already said that I know at least 100 adults who are in that category, but that is not the point here.

[Ahab]

This is a nice reason to do things. But, it is terribly inefficient. I am not sure why it would make sense to go this route rather than continuing with the far more efficient monitary system, particularly if people were to no longer have a love for money.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If you run out of something, how do you get some more?

Option 1) In a world that considers MONEY to be the power that rules the economy, where people need to have money to get things, each person has to do something to get some money from someone who has some money, FIRST, and then after that point that person can THEN go out and get something they need to the extent that they have enough money to buy it.

Option 2) In a world that considers PEOPLE WORKING to be the power that rules the economy, though, with all resources obtained through the work of people who work to harvest natural resources while sometimes using some resources to produce some other things, all a person needs to do is go out and work to get something they need, as long as places for peolpe to work are accessible and not restricted through some type of NO TRESPASSING law where someone else won't share that resource with others.

In today's world, some people have had some success in inducing some people into thinking they need to have money to get what they need, as if that is the way things just have to be because there is no better way, but there really is another way, and a much better way, which involves SHARING all we have to work with, and while some people seem to think in their heads something like:

Oh, that's nice, I suppose, if that's the way people would rather do things. Nobody is saying they can't do that.

... while they then tout their view that MONEY provides the best way to govern how things are used.

What I'm saying is that SHARING what we have, CHARITABLY, without any need for any money, is the BEST way.

[mfbukowski]

Forget the other 30 or so pages of pontifications because this puts it all into perspective and in a nutshell.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks- you're too kind.

After a few years battling in the front lines on this issue it becomes pretty clear.

[Ahab]

Can't speak for others, of course, but I never pontificate.

However, the question remains unanswered: How will a Zion society allocate scarce resources so as to maximize the happiness of all of her citizens? (Alternatively, what evidence is there that resources will not be scarce in a Zion society, or even in the Millennium?)

Apparently, Ahab has tacitly conceded the point, but others seem to have taken the same position, while not providing any support for it.

Lehi

Your "apparently" meter is way off, bro.

I have not conceded that point, and I have told you, as well as I can, how Charity for others is the key to what to you remains a mystery.

[mercyngrace]

Ahab,

I'm not sure I understand why money can't be a medium of exchange. Personally, I don't think the medium is all that relevant. We can be charitable with money just the same as we can be charitable with commodities, time, labor, etc. The point is that we are willing to freely consecrate whatever "talents" we have for the welfare of Zion - whether that is a symbolic piece of paper, a metal disk, or a bushel of produce.

In my mind, it would be easier to spread the concepts of Zion with a representative currency. And if our hearts aren't suffering from the "love of money" then I don't see the issue.

There are definitely things we can do on local levels to allow our members to help each other and practice consecration without money. I mentioned a few already - people donating items to each other through a community closet or people producing food on a welfare farm. But if you consecrated all of your surplus and put in into the fast offering slip would that really be any different?

I think getting caught up in the monetary medium is a distraction.

Cate

[Ahab]

I'm now wondering if most of the views people are sharing in this thread are based upon seeing Zion as the ultimate type of society for the best of all people to live in, as a "United Firm", because based upon what I've seen some people say, I hope not.

To me, the idea of money being the best thing to have in Zion to govern how all resources in Zion will be distributed, is akin to imaging money being the best thing to have in Heaven to govern how all those resources in Heaven will be distributed, and frankly, it's just really weird and very strange for me to think of MONEY as something that would be a good thing to have in Heaven, or Zion, where I imagine people do things just because they love others so much that they really want to help everyone to be happy.

Money in Zion, and money in Heaven, including the Celestial kingdom?

If anyone thinks they can help me to see that as anything other than just really weird, please feel free to give it a try. Go for it.

[Ahab]

... if you consecrated all of your surplus and put in into the fast offering slip would that really be any different?

Your thoughts about money seem to be so ingrained into you that you seem to see money as everything there is, or what everything would be reduced to if we were to somehow reduce everything to something other than what it is.

How do you propose that I put my surplus food, or lumber, or whatever I have a surplus of, on a fast offering slip?

Sell it to get money from it, and then offer that money as my donation? What if nobody wants to buy whatever I have in surplus? Do you think that would mean I would have nothing to offer?

Or, what if someone did want to buy it, for money, while someone else needed that food or lumber and would rather just have the stuff, other than the money?

Why should I reduce something to money, just to have something called money?

Nobody really needs money, in reality. What we really want is what money can help us to get, but we can get it without any money.

To me, money is something that is used to get something ELSE, other than money, because even if money is used to get some more money, the whole point of having that money is to get something ELSE with the money.

My surplus, to me, includes EVERYTHING I have that I can't really use by myself, within a reasonable amount of time, otherwise it would be wasted, on me, because I wouldn't be able to use it, because it is more than I need..

I think getting caught up in the monetary medium is a distraction.

Exactly, because we really don't need the medium, so to think we do, and to work to get it, distracts us from what we really need.