Does Utah Prefer "Eye for an Eye" Justice?

[Walden]

I think that the death penalty should be enforced fully for capitol crimes (murder, etc...) and also that lethal injection should be abolished. Why make the death penalty seem too "humane"? It should be seen as just as brutal as it is! It is taking a life, I for one would not like to make it too "comfortable" for the public to enforce. We should make it a last resort, but we should not be too squeamish to enforce it when necessary. As far as it being able to deter crime, that is not it's purpose in my opinion. It is punishment, the ultimate punishment and one thing is for sure when it is carried out, there are no repeat offenders.

From my experience, and this is almost exclusively with Mormons in the liberal bastion of California, it seems that the majority of Mormons do favor capital punishment. This is of course just from my observations, but I would agree that the LDS belief in capital punishment is indeed tied to the idea of blood atonement, in that there are some sins that are so grievous that blood must be spilled.

Regarding the statement that "Why make the death penalty seem too "humane"?......As far as it being able to deter crime, that is not it's purpose in my opinion. It is punishment, the ultimate punishment and one thing is for sure when it is carried out, there are no repeat offenders." I for one do not believe that the government should be in the revenge business, and that is how I see capital punishment. There is a way to ensure there are no repeat offenders....lock them in a cell for life.

[thesometimesaint]

gmormon:

Then I don't get your point.

[volgadon]

I was going to say that "eye for an eye" appeared to be more government related, while "turn the other cheek" was on an individual level; everyday life.

Could be both. Lex talio was particularly necessary when there was no strong, centralised authority and such matters would be dealt with on a local level. There is also the psalm calling upon God to slap the cheeks of his enemies.

[blueadept]

The primary problem I have with the death penalty is that it takes so long to enact. By the time anyone is actually executed, it seems, they've been in prison for close to twenty years after their crime.

That's not justice to my mind.

An interesting correlation that Sister Helen Prejean that is portrayed in "Dead Man Walking" by Susan Sarandon supposively states that it costs more to actually kill someone with the Death penalty process than it does to simply incarcerate them for their entire life due to the legal system, lawyers, challenges, etc.

So not only does it take too long to enact, it costs more in the long run unfortunately. I haven't found the reference for this yet but it's not necessary unbelievable either.

[maklelan]

This is of course just from my observations, but I would agree that the LDS belief in capital punishment is indeed tied to the idea of blood atonement, in that there are some sins that are so grievous that blood must be spilled.

Which observations, specifically, support in your mind the conclusion that a representative proportion of contemporary Mormons hold to the blood atonement ideology?

[Walden]

Which observations, specifically, support in your mind the conclusion that a representative proportion of contemporary Mormons hold to the blood atonement ideology?

Jeez, I said that this is from my personal observations and is not part of some controlled, scientific study. This observation is from my years growing up in the church and hearing the topic discussed among ward members, either as a side note or tangent in elders quorum meetings, or in general conversation among the mormons that I knew.

I never said that this was something that the church holds as doctrine....do I need to provide some type of references for my own conversation and observations?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

From my experience, and this is almost exclusively with Mormons in the liberal bastion of California, it seems that the majority of Mormons do favor capital punishment. This is of course just from my observations, but I would agree that the LDS belief in capital punishment is indeed tied to the idea of blood atonement, in that there are some sins that are so grievous that blood must be spilled.

Utter nonsense. Me being pro capital punishment has nothing what so ever to do with the supposed doctrine of blood atonement. Most members are not even aware that BY taught blood atonement. What I mean by this is that they have never actually read the source material an might just be familiar with the typical anti-mormon spin that is put on it. To date I am not familiar with a single case of blood atonement being carried out.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Jeez, I said that this is from my personal observations and is not part of some controlled, scientific study. This observation is from my years growing up in the church and hearing the topic discussed among ward members, either as a side note or tangent in elders quorum meetings, or in general conversation among the mormons that I knew.

I never said that this was something that the church holds as doctrine....do I need to provide some type of references for my own conversation and observations?

Really? So it is your claim that you have personally heard poeple claim they are pro captial punishment based on blood atonement?

I call BS. But what ever.

[thesometimesaint]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

I believe that we can be pro death penalty and still be a faithful member of the Church, along with being anti-death penalty and still be a faithful member of the Church. I agree that I've seen no member of the Church tie it to the so called Blood Atonement.

[rockslider]

Really? So it is your claim that you have personally heard poeple claim they are pro captial punishment based on blood atonement?

I call BS. But what ever.

I'd suggest that a fair number of the baby boomer gen has an understanding of the merciful intent of the firing squad (blood atonement). Generation before that, a higher percentage, before that even higher.

I assume gen x/y has little understanding of it.

[Walden]

Really? So it is your claim that you have personally heard poeple claim they are pro captial punishment based on blood atonement?

I call BS. But what ever.

Wow, well I guess you were right by my side when I had these conversations. Is there any room on this forum to discuss the conversational, observational, personal experiences that we have in church, or does everything have to be referenced to some doctrinal text? I specifically said in my previous texts that my thoughts on this subject were from my own observations, and do not reflect LDS doctrine.

And yes, I have personally heard the topic of capital punishment discussed in relation to class lessons regarding the teachings of Brigham Young, specifically blood atonement. No, this was not part of the church-approved manual, but rather speculation and ideas thrown around by members discussing this topic in class, whether it was gospel doctrine or elders quorum. I am sorry if the church classes that you attend stick solely to the church-approved manual and do not leave any room for personal conjecture, speculation, etc. Those sound like very dry, boring classes.

I would call BS if you say that you have never heard any speculative statements in all your years in the LDS church regarding any relationship between blood atonement and capital punishment. But then I am not by your side when you have conversations, so I couldn't tell you what it is that you heard, so I would never claim that it must be BS. To bad the rest of us are not extended this same courtesy.

[BCSpace]

I disagree entirely, and I think her opinion is a strikingly uninformed assumption. I also don't like the rhetorical jab of "when it suits their purposes." If scripture has anything to do with it, it's the Book of Mormon that influences that ideology, although my personal opinion is that it's just a product of mid-west conservativism. What do you think?

Well, if by "Utah" they mean Mormons, then the answer is simply the fact that God has commanded the execution (pun intended) of the death penalty in cases of murder as part of the Gospel (as opposed to merely the Mosaic) law.

[maklelan]

Jeez, I said that this is from my personal observations and is not part of some controlled, scientific study. This observation is from my years growing up in the church and hearing the topic discussed among ward members, either as a side note or tangent in elders quorum meetings, or in general conversation among the mormons that I knew.

I never said that this was something that the church holds as doctrine....do I need to provide some type of references for my own conversation and observations?

It seems to me that conclusions about the motivations of an entire state should, even if based on personal observation, amount to more than a few conversations overheard as a youth. I would expect at least active observation.

[volgadon]

Nevermind that most Mormons I know who favour capital punishment don't seem too particular on the method of execution, which makes no sense if blood atonement is the reason that they favour such punishment.

[Scott Lloyd]

Jeez, I said that this is from my personal observations and is not part of some controlled, scientific study. This observation is from my years growing up in the church and hearing the topic discussed among ward members, either as a side note or tangent in elders quorum meetings, or in general conversation among the mormons that I knew.

I never said that this was something that the church holds as doctrine....do I need to provide some type of references for my own conversation and observations?

Then I will neutralize your "personal observations" by saying I (born into the Church with roots and current residence in Utah's Salt Lake County) have yet to meet a faithful Latter-day Saint (and I deal with many, day in and day out) who holds to any contemporary version of "blood atonement" as it is exploited by critics of the Church of Jesus Christ.

[frankenstein]

I supported the death penalty until I read about William Cunningham, an man executed in Texas even after the Gov. of Texas had received a non-biased expert report that there were serious factual errors during Mr. Cunningham's trial. There are a total of 3 independent reports which all indicate the same thing - that there was no evidence for the crime Cunningham is was found guilty of.

Gov. Perry of Texas has since replaced the "board members" who were to review the case and determine whether an factually innocent person was executed.

But looking to the Bible or BoM for support of the death, just puts you "back in the stone age", look to section 98 of the Doctrine and Covenants for modern support.

[thesometimesaint]

BCSpace:

Then let God carry out the execution.

[gmormon]

gmormon:

Then I don't get your point.

The point is you brought up the "turn the other cheek" scripture, and just how does a dead person die twice? How can a murdered individual possibly look the other way?

[thesometimesaint]

gmormon:

Sorry, still don't get it.

[Walden]

It seems to me that conclusions about the motivations of an entire state should, even if based on personal observation, amount to more than a few conversations overheard as a youth. I would expect at least active observation.

What the heck are you talking about "motivations of an entire state"....I specifically stated that my opinion is based on my own experience. See my original post. I only mentioned California to let readers know that my experiences occurred in California, since the title of the original post states "Does Utah prefer "eye for an eye" justice", and my point was that, again from my experience, the support of capital punishment isn't necessarily a Utah thing.

And yes, these observations were from the conversations that occurred during the years that I grew up in the church and while I attended elders quorum and gospel doctrine classes, as I already stated.

[Jason]

I have often heard in the Church that being executed for murder is just about the only step a murderer can really make, and that the state of a murderer who is executed by the state will be better than someone who is not.

Blood doesn't figure into it, really, but a life for a life certainly does.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer:

The iron maiden worked really well too. Nice and slow bleeding till the sharp knives punctured the heart. The agony was exquisite. The ecstasy on the face of the executioner was sublime. All the while the church demanded more blood.

Actually the electric chair is my favorite... in Florida we used to refer to it as "Old Sparky" until the state legislature wimped out and replaced it with lethal injection. But I find the lethal injection method more demeaning, sort of like putting an "animal to sleep" and I think it is mostly insulting to the animals. Actually I think the "eye for an eye" method would be more appropriate. So if a person was a poisoner they would have to drink poison. If they shot their victim they should be shot. If they strangled their victim, hanging. And so on. The iron maiden would not be practical, too messy. In any event I go by the following:

(D&C 42:18-19) "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die."

[selek]

Lightbearer:

The iron maiden worked really well too. Nice and slow bleeding till the sharp knives punctured the heart. The agony was exquisite. The ecstasy on the face of the executioner was sublime. All the while the church demanded more blood.

SometimeSaint,

Please leave your extra-curriculur activities out of this thread and stick to the topic at hand.

Lightbearer,

The primary tool in the hands of the anti-capital punishment is the phrase in the Constitution forbidding "cruel and unusual punishment".

"Cruel and unusual" are entirely subjective terms which the lace panty crowd has had no compunction against exploiting- along with the squeamishness of "genteel" society.

The "cruel and unusual" phrase is probably the worst bit of warm-and-fuzzy jurisprudence encoded into the Constitution, but there it is, and there it will remain.

[thesometimesaint]

Lightbearer;

That just gives them publicity. I say let them rot in jail forgotten, and unknown to any but by God.

[AddamS]

To my experience, being pro-death penalty isn't a Utah thing. It is a conservative thing. As such, it will be seen as a Mormon thing to most non-LDS Utahans.