Does Utah Prefer "Eye for an Eye" Justice?

[thesometimesaint]

USU78:

And knee jerk reactionism is such a success that every country on earth has adopted it.

[Vance]

What?

Just appreciating USU's clarification.

Where have I ever said that someone/anyone should not pay to the uttermost farthing for the crimes they commit?

Just how do you remove the subjectivity of such a standard?

"An eye for an eye" seems to do just that. Any thing more or less is injustice.

What I have said is that we should treat everyone with respect and dignity. No one deserves to be mistreated, and to do so makes me less.

Implementing justice doesn't diminish any one. It is injustice that diminishes. Not implementing the death penalty in the case of MURDER diminishes the victim, and by extension, you and me.

Heck I even support the death penalty in rare cases. Torture murder, or the ordering of torture that results in death; murder of a peace officer when in the performance of their duties. Most murder is a crime of passion, and killing the killer is nonsensical.

It appears that you are willing, not only to make yourself less, but me also.

Matt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

It appears that the Man is not so squeamish.

[thesometimesaint]

Vance:

What happened to turn the other cheek?

I feel no such need for vengeance. Sorry that you do.

I'm willing to be less in those rare cases. I have no problem with hanging the NAZIS who participated in the Holocaust.

Sitting in a 6 by 8 cage for a very long time looks worse than compared to a long walk off of a short pier with heavy weights around the neck.

[Vance]

Vance:

What happened to turn the other cheek?

I feel no such need for vengeance. Sorry that you do.

I'm willing to be less in those rare cases. I have no problem with hanging the NAZIS who participated in the Holocaust.

Why are you trying to diminish JUSTICE by equating it with vengeance?

If you are OK with being less, that is OK with me, BUT you can't do it "in those rare cases" without diminishing ALL of your fellow humans, ME included.

Sitting in a 6 by 8 cage for a very long time looks worse than compared to a long walk off of a short pier with heavy weights around the neck.

Sounds like you are more into "vengeance"/torture than I am.

[thesometimesaint]

Vance:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html?hpt=T2

[Vance]

Vance:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html?hpt=T2

WOW!!!

Sounds like a GREAT place to be.

Does it's existence deter crime or encourage it?

[Vance]

Alma 1:13 And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people; and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance.

14 Therefore thou art condemned to die, according to the law which has been given us by Mosiah, our last king; and it has been acknowledged by this people; therefore this people must abide by the law.

15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.

16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

17 Nevertheless, they durst not lie, if it were known, for fear of the law, for liars were punished; therefore they pretended to preach according to their belief; and now the law could have no power on any man for his belief.

18 And they durst not steal, for fear of the law, for such were punished; neither durst they rob, nor murder, for he that murdered was punished unto death.

Does punishment have a valid function?

[thesometimesaint]

Vance:

They differ in how they count crime. Some things are crimes here that are not crimes is Norway and visa versa. Major crime(IE. Murder, rape, aggravated assault, and that type of thing are crimes in both counties). But overall Norway has a much lower crime rate and a recidivism rate about 1/5 that of the US.

[thesometimesaint]

Vance:

Yes. punishment has a place. I'm not saying let them go. However excessive punishment doesn't deter crime, and in fact may encourage it.

In the context of modern day American law. There is no punishment for simply preaching against God. We have freedom of speech.

[Jason]

They differ in how they count crime. Some things are crimes here that are not crimes is Norway and visa versa. Major crime(IE. Murder, rape, aggravated assault, and that type of thing are crimes in both counties). But overall Norway has a much lower crime rate and a recidivism rate about 1/5 that of the US.

Apples to oranges.

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

No it is not. I am comparing similar crimes with differing punishments.

From the article:

By the time the trumpets sound, the candles have been lit and the salmon platters garnished. Harald V, King of Norway, enters the room, and 200 guests stand to greet him. Then a chorus of 30 men and women, each wearing a blue police uniform, launches into a spirited rendition of "We Are the World." This isn't cabaret night at Oslo's Royal Palace. It's a gala to inaugurate Halden Fengsel, Norway's newest prison.

Ten years and 1.5 billion Norwegian kroner ($252 million) in the making, Halden is spread over 75 acres (30 hectares) of gently sloping forest in southeastern Norway. The facility boasts amenities like a sound studio, jogging trails and a freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits. Unlike many American prisons, the air isn't tinged with the smell of sweat and urine. Instead, the scent of orange sorbet emanates from the "kitchen laboratory" where inmates take cooking courses. "In the Norwegian prison system, there's a focus on human rights and respect," says Are Hoidal, the prison's governor. "We don't see any of this as unusual." (See the top 10 crime stories of 2009.)

Halden, Norway's second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country's penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society. "When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape," Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. "We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people." Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%. Of course, a low level of criminality gives Norway a massive advantage. Its prison roll lists a mere 3,300, or 69 per 100,000 people, compared with 2.3 million in the U.S., or 753 per 100,000

[Jason]

No it is not. I am comparing similar crimes with differing punishments.

In countries with radically different populations, climates, societies, history, languages, etc.

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

I never said they were not different. What I did say is that their treatment of like prisoners is very different than the US. If you want a more analogous population we need to look to our northern border Canada. It too has a lower crime rate than the US but a much higher rate of recidivism dependent on how it is counted(Women with vary low rates for repeat offenses, and adolescents with very high when parole, probation violations are counted in).

[Jason]

I never said they were not different. What I did say is that their treatment of like prisoners is very different than the US.

And what I said is that the differences between the two nations make any comparison meaningless. You cannot say "Norway has a lower rate of recidivism than the US because of the differences in how they treat their prisoners" with any authority.

If you want a more analogous population we need to look to our northern border Canada. It too has a lower crime rate than the US but a much higher rate of recidivism dependent on how it is counted(Women with vary low rates for repeat offenses, and adolescents with very high when parole, probation violations are counted in).

Still apples to oranges.

Even comparing state to state might not tell you what is causing the difference between recidivism rates in different states. It's just not that simple a subject.