Why would Abraham's writings be buried with a mummy?

[William Schryver]

LOL. Come on Will don't be ridiculous. Are you afraid of someone like me?

Not at all. Once identified, it's not hard for most people to detect the wolf beneath the sheep costume. Consider me the guy with the paint ball gun who marks the disguised wolves as they come into the flock. It's actually a great job. I'm using chartreuse paint balls today.

Are you afraid that I might still go to church and find usefulness in being Mormon but not believe in Joseph Smith's ideas and borrowed doctrines?

Actually, I'm quite confident that you cannot do this. At least not for very long. Hence my counsel to you: move on. Leave Mormonism far behind. You'll be a lot happier that way. Sticking around and obsessing over (and trying to convince others of) what you see as all the good reasons for rejecting Joseph Smith and the restoration is a recipe for perpetual anger and frustration. You'd be far better off getting as much distance as possible between you and Mormonism.

On the other hand, if you choose to stick around, I do get lots of target practice ...

[William Schryver]

I'm afraid I've fallen behind on your latest acronyms. What's an AIP? Or a DAMU for that matter?

Ya gotta stay up to speed around here:

AIP = Apostate in Progress

DAMU = Disaffected Mormon Underground (this is a very, very old one)

[Senator]

I'm afraid I've fallen behind on your latest acronyms. What's an AIP? Or a DAMU for that matter?

Since the very first guideline of this board is utterly ignored, I think we should all join in on the fun.

Here's one for Will and others:

SAAP > Self Anointed Apostate Porter

[zeezrom]

On the other hand, if you choose to stick around, I do get lots of target practice ...

I'm fine with that. I have nothing to prove of myself and my abilities. I don't claim to be an expert in being a critic of the Mormon church. I'm just some normal guy walking around. Take all the shots you want. The one's I'm getting from family members are the ones that matter to me. I do not try to convince them they are wrong. Why should I? We are talking about personal beliefs. Personal beliefs don't make you who you are. It is your actions that make you who you are. So some of my close relatives think I'm immoral now because I don't believe in Joseph Smith and consider him an immoral impostor.

All I want is to know what the apologists have to say about BofA being found with a mummy. I want the side of the story I will likely hear from close relatives so I'm informed.

Let me repeat this: I do not plan on tearing down others around me in my real life. I'm not going to tell my BIL that he is stupid for believing in Joseph Smith although he might tell me I'm stupid for not believing in him.

I think I got my answer to the OP. I have some material I can look at. Thank you for helping by pointing me to Hugh Nibley's book.

And no, I will not just move on and distance myself from the church. Sorry.

[Mortal Man]

Are you afraid that I might still go to church and find usefulness in being Mormon but not believe in Joseph Smith's ideas and borrowed doctrines?

For what it's worth zeezrom, I hope you stick it out. The church is a marvelous organization and a great place to raise a family. As the DAMU¹ continues to grow, William will eventually find himself alone in the chapel and will be forced to come join us in the foyer. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it.

1. William Scryver, Private Communication.

[kamenraider]

I don't know. Its funny, with the facsimiles, I see a collection of hits* and misses*,enough "hits" and "misses" to either believe or disbelieve without being a nutcase . I once emailed a certain LDS Egyptologist...ahem... and he told me that he was aware of something like 14 different theories to explain the facsimiles and their relationship to the BoA. So to answer your questian, I dont know.

*assuming what we currently understand about ancient Egyptian religion is complete and perfect....which I seriously doubt.

I definitely see some inspiration going on in the interpretations of the facsimiles. Perhaps they aren't inspired to the same degree as the actual Book of Abraham because they weren't really part of it. Someone may have seen the reference to "the figures at the beginning" of the scroll and assumed that it referred to facsimile 1 or whatever, when it could have referred to something at the other end of the scroll.

[William Schryver]

I definitely see some inspiration going on in the interpretations of the facsimiles. Perhaps they aren't inspired to the same degree as the actual Book of Abraham because they weren't really part of it. Someone may have seen the reference to "the figures at the beginning" of the scroll and assumed that it referred to facsimile 1 or whatever, when it could have referred to something at the other end of the scroll.

I agree with you.

I perceive a great deal of very interesting material in the three facsimiles--material that could very well have a relationship to the kinds of things we associate with temple liturgy. Although critics of the church will universally attempt to discredit him and his works, I cannot recommend four books more highly than Hugh Winder Nibley's compendium of Book of Abraham-related volumes:

Abraham in Egypt

The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri (latest edition)

An Approach to the Book of Abraham

One Eternal Round

Professor Nibley was head and shoulders (and a mountain or two) above those puny minds that casually dismiss him as a parallelomaniac run amok.

Incidentally (and although your reference was technically to Abr. 1:14) the often-claimed "internal reference" (Abr. 1:12) to Facsimile #1 is very likely a 19th century redaction. See here for an extended discussion of that question.

[William Schryver]

For what it's worth zeezrom, I hope you stick it out. The church is a marvelous organization and a great place to raise a family. As the DAMU¹ continues to grow, William will eventually find himself alone in the chapel and will be forced to come join us in the foyer. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it.

1. William Scryver, Private Communication.

I always find these DAMU fantasies so charming.

One of the most common beliefs among the DAMU is that they are (or very soon will be) in the majority; that they will soon be numerous enough to effect those changes that (from their perspective) are necessary in the church in order to advance its interests in the 21st century and beyond.

[William Schryver]

I'm fine with that. I have nothing to prove of myself and my abilities. I don't claim to be an expert in being a critic of the Mormon church. I'm just some normal guy walking around. Take all the shots you want. The one's I'm getting from family members are the ones that matter to me. I do not try to convince them they are wrong. Why should I? We are talking about personal beliefs. Personal beliefs don't make you who you are. It is your actions that make you who you are. So some of my close relatives think I'm immoral now because I don't believe in Joseph Smith and consider him an immoral impostor.

All I want is to know what the apologists have to say about BofA being found with a mummy. I want the side of the story I will likely hear from close relatives so I'm informed.

Let me repeat this: I do not plan on tearing down others around me in my real life. I'm not going to tell my BIL that he is stupid for believing in Joseph Smith although he might tell me I'm stupid for not believing in him.

I think I got my answer to the OP. I have some material I can look at. Thank you for helping by pointing me to Hugh Nibley's book.

And no, I will not just move on and distance myself from the church. Sorry.

Just like all who have gone before you, it will soon become quite apparent that you can no longer get back to "neutral ground."

This account is, I believe, instructive:

[volgadon]

And to get back on topic, this is a classic introduction to the Jews in Egypt.

http://www.amazon.com/Hellenistic-Civilization-Jews-Civil-Txt/dp/0689702485/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1/184-2846775-9020161

[zeezrom]

And to get back on topic, this is a classic introduction to the Jews in Egypt.

http://www.amazon.co...2846775-9020161

Interesting. Thanks!

[volgadon]

There is a used copy for only $3. If you are seriously interested in the world at the time of the BoA and facsimiles, then I suggest you start with Tcherikover's book. Half of it centers around the Jews in Egypt.

[zeezrom]

Just like all who have gone before you, it will soon become quite apparent that you can no longer get back to "neutral ground."

This account is, I believe, instructive:

Ha ha. That is so funny.

When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.

The problem with this logic is that people still serve God while not members of the LDS church. The idea that serving God as being connected only to LDS is all in your mind!

"You mean you can serve God and not be a LDS?" Oh my! A belief that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God is nothing more than a personal belief. That is all!

I think Joseph Smith must have had some complex where he wanted people to think he was the Master. "You have to believe in me, dang it! If you don't you are forsaking everything! Satan has you in his grip if you stop believing in me!! Believe me!"

O brother.

[William Schryver]

And to get back on topic, this is a classic introduction to the Jews in Egypt.

http://www.amazon.com/Hellenistic-Civilization-Jews-Civil-Txt/dp/0689702485/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1/184-2846775-9020161

Yes, and also this one: The Jews in the Greek Age.

[William Schryver]

Ha ha. That is so funny.

The problem with this logic is that people still serve God while not members of the LDS church. The idea that serving God as being connected only to LDS is all in your mind!

"You mean you can serve God and not be a LDS?" Oh my! A belief that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God is nothing more than a personal belief. That is all!

I think Joseph Smith must have had some complex where he wanted people to think he was the Master. "You have to believe in me, dang it! If you don't you are forsaking everything! Satan has you in his grip if you stop believing in me!! Believe me!"

O brother.

You fail to understand the import of the Prophet's warning.

Of course people who have never been exposed to the restoration can and do "serve God." That goes without saying. The Prophet's warning is only to those who have received the inestimable blessing of the knowledge of the restored gospel, and who then reject it. They are those who can no longer get back to "neutral ground."

So laugh all you want, we are already seeing signs of your fulfilling the Prophet's words.

Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

... Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

[zeezrom]

You fail to understand the import of the Prophet's warning.

I wouldn't consider it a failure to understand. I believe Joseph was trying to warn people so they would fear Satan was trying to pit them against himself. Remember how Joseph got mad at a girl for questioning the authenticity of the mummy documents (journal December 12, 1835)? He was pretty good at making doubters be afraid. He equated skepticism in his Power and Authority as downright wickedness. Silly.

[Jason]

I wouldn't consider it a failure to understand. I believe Joseph was trying to warn people so they would fear Satan was trying to pit them against himself. Remember how Joseph got mad at a girl for questioning the authenticity of the mummy documents (journal December 12, 1835)? He was pretty good at making doubters be afraid. He equated skepticism in his Power and Authority as downright wickedness. Silly.

Apparently you do fail to understand.

[William Schryver]

I wouldn't consider it a failure to understand. I believe Joseph was trying to warn people so they would fear Satan was trying to pit them against himself. Remember how Joseph got mad at a girl for questioning the authenticity of the mummy documents (journal December 12, 1835)? He was pretty good at making doubters be afraid. He equated skepticism in his Power and Authority as downright wickedness. Silly.

Joseph got "mad"?

Did he really?

Saturday morning, 12th At home. Spent the fore noon in reading. At about 12 o'clock a number of young person called to see the Egyptian records. I requested my Scribe [Warren Parrish] to ex[h]ibit them. He did so. One of the young ladies who had been examining them was asked if they had the appearance of Antiquity. She observed with an air of contempt that they did not. On hearing this I was surprised at the ignorance she displayed and I observed to her that she was an anomaly in creation for all the wise and learned that had ever examined them without hesitation pronounced them antient [ancient]. I further remarked that it was downright wickedness, ignorance, bigotry, and superstition that caused her to make the remark and that I would put it on record. I have done so because it is a fair sample of the prevailing spirit of the times showing that the victims of priestcraft and superstition would not believe though one should rise from the dead.

An American Prophet's Record-The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, Scott H. Faulring, ed., Signature Books, 1987:75

The young woman, against all the obvious facts, was willfully and contemptuously asserting that the papyri did not look ancient, even though that fact was not even in dispute!

It had nothing to do with her not accepting

[zeezrom]

It was simply his observation that this young woman

[William Schryver]

Excuse me. Joseph looked at her and remarked with the deepest emotions of respect and kindness that it was downright wickedness, bigotry, and superstition on her part. She was such a fool to think such nonsense. What a wicked, silly little girl who should know better.

Since when is it wickedness to mistakenly consider something not ancient because you are not familiar with something? What a horrible sinner! Bring her to repentance!

You're reading far more into the account than is to be found. This is a classic case of eisegesis. I've noticed that you're quite good at it when it comes to Joseph Smith. You have become an avowed enemy of the Prophet of the Restoration. You are convinced that he was a bad man. And now you see evil in pretty much everything he ever said or did. Thus I have noted that you are actively fulfilling one of his most striking prophecies:

Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

... Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

.

.

.

Edit: Incidentally, I believe it was "downright wickedness, bigotry, and superstition" that motivated the young woman to say what she said. Joseph was spot on with his observation. But I don't believe he was angry. I imagine, more than anything, he was probably sad.

[zeezrom]

Edit: Incidentally, I believe it was "downright wickedness, bigotry, and superstition" that motivated the young woman to say what she said. Joseph was spot on with his observation. But I don't believe he was angry. I imagine, more than anything, he was probably sad.

Are you reading far more into this? You take the liberty to "imagine" Joseph's emotions in his favor.

Let's spin it in your favor:

JS: "So kids, what do you think of the mummy and this scroll? Pretty neat eh?"

girl: [while chewing gum and looking insolent through half closed eyes] "I dunno, this looks like a fake to me."

JS: [with sadness in his eyes] "It is downright wickedness, ignorance, bigotry, and superstition that caused you to say that."

girl: [rolls her eyes]

JS: "I will put it on record." [sound of Joseph sniffing]

That is how The Prophet of the Restoration reacts to people that don't believe in something he is involved in - be it sad, mad, happy or whatever. The person is a wicked soul involved in priest crafts and superstitions for questioning the future King of the Kingdom of God on the Earth (preparatory to Christ of course).

What he could have done:

JS: "So kids, what do you think of the mummy and this scroll? Pretty neat eh?"

girl: [while chewing gum and looking insolent through half closed eyes] "I dunno, this looks like a fake to me."

JS: [with sadness in his eyes] "Here, let me show you why you might be wrong."

[volgadon]

From what little I know of Egyptian beliefs and customs, it seems a little odd that a story of Abraham would be of interest enough to be buried with the mummy.

Cosmology, cosmogony, astrology and astronomy, what is not of interest to an ancient Egyptian?

[MythicalHat]

Who is this William Schryver character and why is he so combative!? And how in the heck can he speak to what Joseph Smith was thinking??

[zeezrom]

Cosmology, cosmogony, astrology and astronomy, what is not of interest to an ancient Egyptian?

That is a good point. I guess I was thinking of the other ideas portrayed in BofA like Jehovah, the Priesthood (not the Egyptian priesthood), the Gospel, an alter for animal sacrifice (did Egyptians care about this? I actually don't know), Christ in the preexistence, the Temple, and the Holy Ghost. Those ideas seemed to be out of place to me when I posted on this subject originally.

Could someone also point me to a response to the criticism that Joseph did not translate the facsimiles correctly? I was just looking at this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Facsimile_No._1

Thank you!

[zeezrom]

BTW - I was just read through the

Early criticism of the facsimiles

on

http://en.wikipedia....Facsimile_No._1

I don't see how this can be explained away. Maybe reading John Gee's document should help?

It is pretty apparent that Joseph Smith got the translation wrong.