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Why would Abraham's writings be buried with a mummy?


zeezrom

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Documents were frequently buried with mummies. The Pyramid Texts, which morphed into the Coffin Texts, which morphed into the Book of the Dead, were such documents, and contained information that was thought to help the deceased in the afterworld.

Facsimile 2 in the Book of Abraham is a hypocephalus. The term hypocephalus refers to the practice of placing such a document under (hypo) the head (kephalos) of a deceased person just prior to burial.

It was also customary to bury people with things that they would find of value in the next life because they had valued them in this life (e.g., King Tutankhamon's chariot and chairs and game pieces and the like). Presumably, the Joseph Smith Papyri -- which were undeniably associated with a mummy burial -- were valued by their owner and were buried with him.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=105&chapid=1174

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Hellenistic Egypt was a cosmopolitan place, exchanges and fusion of ideas took place there all the time. Jews had a large presence in Alexandria and Fayyum, and with that presence came influences on all walks of life, just as they were influenced by Greeks and Egyptians. Wisdom and astrology/astronomy were highly prized, so why is the idea of someone being buried with writings dealing on such things far-fetched?

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Heck why was the earliest writing of the Koran in stuffed up in the roof of a Yemen Mosque since 700 AD and found in 1972? Why were the writings in Nag Hammadi buried in clay pots in the middle of nowhere written around the time of Christ and not found until 1945? Why were the Dead Sea Scrolls socked away in caves in the mountains? Go ask the authors what possessed them to do so. Honestly zeezrom what goes through the mind.

Maybe the Pharaoh just wanted to take them with him on his journey to the after life. There could be dozens of reasons. After your last topic was locked and this why don't you just come out and say it? You believe all of Mormonism to be false doctrine.

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Does FAIR or anyone give a reason for why Abraham's writings would be buried with an Egyptian mummy along with funeral writings?

It seems odd.

:P

There's a very large body of literature out there that addresses this question and its corollaries.

Of course, you're not interested in an answer to your question, are you? This is all just part and parcel of the PAAS (Passive Aggressive Apostate Syndrome) working through you. This is how you go about evangelizing for unfaith in the restored gospel. You simultaneously post identical threads at MADB and MDB, and then feign sincere interest in the apologetic answers here, as you laugh it up with your apostate posse over at the GSTP.

You're a real piece of work. Not quite as polished as your buddy "Runtu," but certainly struck from the same mold. Maybe you two could collaborate on a book: PAAS for Dummies.

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:P

There's a very large body of literature out there that addresses this question and its corollaries.

Of course, you're not interested in an answer to your question, are you? This is all just part and parcel of the PAAS (Passive Aggressive Apostate Syndrome) working through you. This is how you go about evangelizing for unfaith in the restored gospel. You simultaneously post identical threads at MADB and MDB, and then feign sincere interest in the apologetic answers here, as you laugh it up with your apostate posse over at the GSTP.

You're a real piece of work. Not quite as polished as your buddy "Runtu," but certainly struck from the same mold. Maybe you two could collaborate on a book: PAAS for Dummies.

You could always "advert one's gaze", as I was so kindly invited to do after I expressed my annoyance with certain postings.

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Does FAIR or anyone give a reason for why Abraham's writings would be buried with an Egyptian mummy along with funeral writings?

It seems odd.

Thank you,

Zee.

Why not? If you had ever read the book of Abraham you would know the great cosmological questions it deals with and as the Egyptians were very much concerned with life and death it would be quite logical to include such a book with the dead inasmuch as their traditions were to include things in their tombs that would be of great value or of help to them in the afterlife.

The most amazing thing about this thread is that you were unable to somehow mention Joseph Smith's plural marriages in it. :P

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Does FAIR or anyone give a reason for why Abraham's writings would be buried with an Egyptian mummy along with funeral writings?

It seems odd.

Thank you,

Zee.

John Gee has a possible answer to that questian.

Like Volgo said Greco-Roman Egyptian religion was pretty eclectic. I've alaways found the following text to be interesting.....

lpext.jpg

... AIDIO ORICH THAMBITO, Abraham who at... PLANOIEGCHIBIOTH MOU ROU and the whole soul for her, NN [whom NN bore]... the female body of her, NN [whom NN bore], I conjure by the... [and] to inflame her, NN whom [NN bore] [Write these] words together with this picture [the lion couch vignette] on a new papyrus.

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Documents were frequently buried with mummies. The Pyramid Texts, which morphed into the Coffin Texts, which morphed into the Book of the Dead, were such documents, and contained information that was thought to help the deceased in the afterworld.

Facsimile 2 in the Book of Abraham is a hypocephalus. The term hypocephalus refers to the practice of placing such a document under (hypo) the head (kephalos) of a deceased person just prior to burial.

It was also customary to bury people with things that they would find of value in the next life because they had valued them in this life (e.g., King Tutankhamon's chariot and chairs and game pieces and the like). Presumably, the Joseph Smith Papyri -- which were undeniably associated with a mummy burial -- were valued by their owner and were buried with him.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=105&chapid=1174

Are the Book of Abraham facsimiles directly related to the Book of Abraham content-wise (in any specific sense) though? I've always sort of thought that they were only mistakenly associated as far as actual content goes ever since they were published together in the Times & Seasons. As an example of what I mean, the explanation of fig. 5 in facsimile 3 says that the writing above his hand represents his name as Shulem, but it really gives the name as Osiris Hor.

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Does FAIR or anyone give a reason for why Abraham's writings would be buried with an Egyptian mummy along with funeral writings?

It seems odd.

Thank you,

Zee.

Why does it seem odd? Because you say so?

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Are the Book of Abraham facsimiles directly related to the Book of Abraham content-wise (in any specific sense) though? I've always sort of thought that they were only mistakenly associated as far as actual content goes ever since they were published together in the Times & Seasons. As an example of what I mean, the explanation of fig. 5 in facsimile 3 says that the writing above his hand represents his name as Shulem, but it really gives the name as Osiris Hor.

I don't know. Its funny, with the facsimiles, I see a collection of hits* and misses*,enough "hits" and "misses" to either believe or disbelieve without being a nutcase :P . I once emailed a certain LDS Egyptologist...ahem... and he told me that he was aware of something like 14 different theories to explain the facsimiles and their relationship to the BoA. So to answer your questian, I dont know.

*assuming what we currently understand about ancient Egyptian religion is complete and perfect....which I seriously doubt.

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Be patient. He's just getting started ...

Thank you for the patience. Indeed I am a person that has not spent a huge amount of time with Egyptian hieroglyphics and mummies. You could even say I know very little about the subjects and am therefore a layman - a novice. I learned about how Egyptian royalty were buried in history class but that is all I have. But why would my lack of knowledge on the subject make me less worthy to ask the question in the OP?

DCP notified me of John Gee's writings. Thank you DCP. I plan to look through that information.

A guy named Paul Osborne said:

Some theorize that the missing rolls of Abraham & Joseph were a personal treasure kept in antiquity by priestly lines and later deposited into a tomb at Thebes during Roman times. Perhaps it's not impossible that such a book could be preserved by a family of priests who kept the records in store as a testimony of the Hebrew God, but all of this is pure speculation. This would also create serious religious complications that conflict with Egyptian burial customs. The idea of the Book of Abraham being buried in an Egyptian tomb that has been devoted to Osiris is a colossal contradiction at best! An overwhelming rebuttal will easily demonstrate how this is something that would never be tolerated by the priesthood of pharaoh.

From what little I know of Egyptian beliefs and customs, it seems a little odd that a story of Abraham would be of interest enough to be buried with the mummy.

Thanks for the information (those that shared some) - for I will look into it.

Zee.

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The Pyramid Texts, which morphed into the Coffin Texts, which morphed into the Book of the Dead, were such documents, and contained information that was thought to help the deceased in the afterworld.

Which is why we find Abraham's story all over the pyramids and coffins...

It was also customary to bury people with things that they would find of value in the next life because they had valued them in this life (e.g., King Tutankhamon's chariot and chairs and game pieces and the like). Presumably, the Joseph Smith Papyri -- which were undeniably associated with a mummy burial -- were valued by their owner and were buried with him.

Do you believe the Book of Abraham was on the Hor scroll? I think a proclamation from the church's foremost apologist would help frame the debate.

It is far from unknown for Abraham to occur in Egyptian papyri:

It is far from known that these papyri have anything to do with the BoA: http://www.irr.org/M...shment-pt1.html

Are the Book of Abraham facsimiles directly related to the Book of Abraham content-wise (in any specific sense) though?

They are woven into the narrative.

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Thanks for assuming I would care to take the easy route and dismiss notions and historical evidence. You know me a little but you don't know me very well.

"Why do I believe the text contains funeral writings?" Because I read that somewhere. I don't remember where. I'm willing to let that idea go as false if I can find the information that will prove it false. So maybe I will start with Hugh Nibley's book.

I already look at Joseph Smith as someone I don't care to emulate or consider as a good example. He has become someone not important in my life to be honest with you. That may not matter because he was just some guy and as long as we try to emulate Christ as our example, we should be okay. I'm willing to take the time to consider the idea that maybe it was not strange for a story of Abraham to end up with an Egyptian mummy.

Believe or not Will, there are people in this world who can't simply walk away from Mormonism and still need to find good in it somehow. There are things called families and relationships that we may consider important.

A member in my ward once told me that "The Book of Abraham is a joke." I'm not willing to say that just because I heard other people say it to me. I'm willing to learn more about it.

Thank you for your thoughts. I did not know there was a Jewish presence in Thebes during the time you mentioned. I've never heard of Jewish presence in Egypt while studying the history of Egypt at BYU (just my generals class). I'm willing to look into this.

Don't act too wronged. You have to remember that there are those of us who are quite aware of what you write elsewhere. We understand completely that the image of the sincere seeker of truth that you are fond of portraying on this message board is in stark contrast to the confirmed disbeliever in Mormonism that you are among your true "friends."

Frankly, I can see absolutely no purpose whatsoever in your attempting to learn more about Jews in Thebes or anything of the sort. Your already-reached conclusions concerning Joseph Smith guarantee your permanent disaffection from Mormonism.

So go.

Learning more about the Book of Abraham issue at this juncture isn't going to aid you in your determination about the truthfulness of Mormonism, is it? All it promises to gain you is more ammo for you to use when you come on this message board and create threads with seemingly innocuous titles like "Why would Abraham's writings be buried with a mummy?" Your intentions are clear. You are an actively evangelizing member of the DAMU. We get that. We see it all the time. My counsel to you is the same as I have given to other AIPs (and I give it sincerely): Get on with it already! Fine, you've decided Mormonism is not what it claims to be. So leave it behind! All you're doing by remaining here is fulfilling Joseph Smith's prophecy concerning apostates. And I can't believe you'd want to do that.

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Which is why we find Abraham's story all over the pyramids and coffins...

Do you believe the Book of Abraham was on the Hor scroll? I think a proclamation from the church's foremost apologist would help frame the debate.

It is far from known that these papyri have anything to do with the BoA: http://www.irr.org/M...shment-pt1.html

They are woven into the narrative.

Speaking of AIPs ...

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It is far from known that these papyri have anything to do with the BoA: http://www.irr.org/M...shment-pt1.html

Note that Gee's rebuttal directly and respectfully addresses the argument without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

While we should welcome any correction of flaws in the scholarly argument, the author, Edward H. Ashment, has continually been noted for his confused, confusing, and occasionally incoherent presentations,1 a trend continued in the present work. In this endeavor he has been preceded by the dedicated anti-Mormons Jerald and Sandra Tanner, who excel Ashment only in the honesty with which they admit their agenda, and their willingness to concede that the evidence does actually say what has been claimed.2 Unfortunately, Ashment's and the Tanners' discussions of the evidence are preoccupied with mind-reading and characterized by muddled thinking. But since they are not particularly adept in the theory and practice of magic, and emphatically reject notions of divine revelation in modern times, they fail miserably as mind-readers. Every time they state what the author they are attacking had in mind (and I have this on impeccable authority), they get it wrong (more on this later).3 (Since they purport to be scholars, they ought to be ashamed for even attempting this.)

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Learning more about the Book of Abraham issue at this juncture isn't going to aid you in your determination about the truthfulness of Mormonism, is it? All it promises to gain you is more ammo for you to use when you come on this message board and create threads with seemingly innocuous titles like "Why would Abraham's writings be buried with a mummy?" Your intentions are clear. You are an actively evangelizing member of the DAMU. We get that. We see it all the time. My counsel to you is the same as I have given to other AIPs (and I give it sincerely): Get on with it already! Fine, you've decided Mormonism is not what it claims to be. So leave it behind! All you're doing by remaining here is fulfilling Joseph Smith's prophecy concerning apostates. And I can't believe you'd want to do that.

LOL. Come on Will don't be ridiculous. Are you afraid of someone like me? Are you afraid that I might still go to church and find usefulness in being Mormon but not believe in Joseph Smith's ideas and borrowed doctrines?

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Note that Gee's rebuttal directly and respectfully addresses the argument without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Whatever. Say what you want, John is absolutely correct in his assessment in this case.

There's a very good reason that Ed Ashment is no longer (for many, many years now) involved in Egyptology.

And his errors are not exclusive to the field of Egyptology. He managed to stink up the field of textual criticism as well. More on that down the road ...

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