"Others" in the BoM: Michael Ash and MormonTimes

[ttribe]

Why? What about it is any more devastating than the 'interpreters'?

I have, for some time, had some difficulty understanding why a brown rock found while digging a well is more "devastating" to the truth claims re: the Book of Mormon, but a huge pair of spectacles (made from clear rocks, no less) attached to a breastplate are acceptable.

[Senator]

Why? What about it is any more devastating than the 'interpreters'?

One was given by an angel. The other of his own make. It kind of messes with the whole "mystically divine" imagery a bit. I can understand that.

[ttribe]

One was given by an angel. The other of his own make. It kind of messes with the whole "mystically divine" imagery a bit. I can understand that.

One was not of "his own make"; unless you believe you can create such things out of rocks.

[Senator]

One was not of "his own make"; unless you believe you can create such things out of rocks.

You know what I mean.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You know what I mean.

I guess not.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have, for some time, had some difficulty understanding why a brown rock found while digging a well is more "devastating" to the truth claims re: the Book of Mormon, but a huge pair of spectacles (made from clear rocks, no less) attached to a breastplate are acceptable.

This is almost as good as "It was devestating to know that JS had a gun when he was in jail".

[ttribe]

You know what I mean.

So, one he found while digging. The other he found while digging in a place an angel told him to dig. Is that the distinction you were going for?

[Senator]

One was not of "his own make"; unless you believe you can create such things out of rocks.

Joseph obviously believed he could use rocks found in the earth for such things.

[Senator]

So, one he found while digging. The other he found while digging in a place an angel told him to dig. Is that the distinction you were going for?

Absolutely

[ttribe]

Joseph obviously believed he could use rocks found in the earth for such things.

I understand that, which strengthens the argument that such implements may have been preparatory to his call to translate the BoM.

[Senator]

I understand that, which strengthens the argument that such implements may have been preparatory to his call to translate the BoM.

Not only preparatory, but entirely sufficient. Obviously he didn't even need the U&T.

Moroni probably wishes he had know that. I would have saved him lugging all that stuff across the continent.

[ttribe]

Not only preparatory, but entirely sufficient. Obviously he didn't even need the U&T.

Since the extant record seems to document several implements and methods used by JS, it would seem "sufficient" is a bit of an overstatement.

Moroni probably wishes he had know that. I would have saved him lugging all that stuff across the continent.

Not to mention the plates, right?

[Lloyd Dobler]

Why?

It was devasted because it was never taught to me. Infact, something completely different was taught to me..........for my entire life. I heard this on my mission in Alabama and told people it was anti, it certainly did not feel good at the time when I heard it. When I got off my mission, it still was not taught in any classes etc. When I finally learned about it on the interent and realized what the deal was, i felt very uncomfortable. I think it's one thing to look for bury treasure with a map or old court docs or something. It was quite another for me to learn that he looked for treasure using a rock and a hat. It stuck me as ridiculous and wierd. Then he uses the same means to produce the Book of Mormon, which again, was something I had never heard. When I told my sister about the rock and hat thing her first "feeling" was that what I was saying was actually evil. I sent her the Ensign article on it from long ago and she cried. She is a smart girl and a college soccer player and totally devout. I am actually suprised you seem to think it should be no biggie for regular members. The fact that the church still does not put this simple fact in the lesson manuals is disengenuous. If we are a peculiar people, put it in the manual, teach the truth and get on with it.

How so?

My general premise is that if you asked most members, especially a few years ago and before, if there were people who pre dated the BofM people, they would say no. If you disagree with that, fair enough. For some guy who writes for a magazine that the Church does not officially stand behind or endorse to give his opinion in the form of fact (again my opinion) is prematurely dismissive when set against the backdrop of many years of faithful alternative thinking.

What is the basis for this opinion?

The basis for this opinion is that it's my opinion. When I think of Mormon Times I think of regular members like my family and extended family who read it. They are not informed like the people on this board. They don't make the time to do lots of research. They are busy living their lives and from my experience with them, simply adopt the conclusions and anaysis of Ash. I don't think that is much of a stretch at all. We do this kind of thing in the Church all the time, especially with our General Authorities. Now I don't have a problem with members adopting the conclusions and opinions of the prophet for example without doing research.....but for these kinds of articles I think it is a problem when he takes this presumptive truth and correctness type tone.

Why does he need to do such things? Is the reader not able to think for himself/herself?

Because he is hitting what in my opinion are huge issues that cause major problems for peoples testimonies and he is addressing and wrapping up these incredibly important and complex issues in one page with a nice bow on top. Yeah, I think the principle of humility alone would compel him to encourage his readers to treat it like LifeonPlate said, as an introduction only. He should mention that there is at the very least much information that he is not including etc and encourage people to read further. He should at least acknowledge the other sides of issues and the important facts etc supporting those sides. It's really not asking for much considering importance of the subjects he is addressing, especially in this age of the interent.

What is the basis for your "thought" regarding "most" readers?

My experience with my family and extended family and a couple guys in my ward. Beyond that, I have no basis. Again it is only my opinion but it is an opinion based on my experience with probably 10 very active members. I understand i am exposing myself by making these kinds of generalizations. But I think generalizations can be useful shorthand sometimes for people to "get" where I am coming from. I think sometimes we can get so parsimonious that much of the power behind the orininal meaning is lost.

Are you accusing Mike Ash of intentionally deceiving his readers? Furthermore, what shall the bright line test be for the inclusion of information or not given the pragmatic issues of space limitations and quality of evidence?

I would be accusing Mike Ash of decieving his readers, yes. If you knowingly leave out a bunch of information regarding your topic like Cinepro pointed out in the beginning and simply take them to a simplified conclusion, week after week, with no disclaimers or encouragement to the reader to do their own research, or a list of resources pro and con for readers to do additional reading I think it is a form of deception. Look, I am being honest and trying to be clear so I am not going to get parsimonious and tap dance around your very pointed question. But to give you better context, I think what Ash is doing could be a very good thing. These things need to be talked about and he is one of the few proactively doing so. I could have likely used stuff like this a few years ago. If anything, I am saying add a disclaimer, give the other side of the story with their facts, present as well rounded a picture as you can for members to the jump off and make up their own mind through reading and prayer. To simply take what I think are huge issues and jam them to a conclusion stated as fact or assumed as fact in one page without anything else is deceiving the reader. He is in a position of apologetic authority of sorts with his readers and for me there is a high risk of readers taking his articles at face value. and i would think we would all support encouraging members to get all the facts on their own and make their own decisions. Is it too much to ask for this kind of tone from such articles?

Do you actually know of anyone who is doing such a thing?

Yes.

He's talking about his own conclusion and addressing natural follow-on questions. I don't understand why this bothers you.

I guess I'm failing to understand why it is you seem to think you are the only one who can think critically about the information at hand.

You got me. Look, this is a discussion board. This is my first time. MAsh is doing a good thing. I think it's worth discussing how he can do it better. I don't think there is harm in that. Sure you can clobber me with "well your saying he is doing a good thing but then saying he is deceiving people!" Please don't run with the whole "i am accusing him of deception". You brought it up, i did not want to artfully dodge such a question. If you want to trap me and grind me on the deception thing and undermine my credibility or whatever, so be it. I will do the best I can to respond. Cinepro brings up a good point about these articles and I am running with it. Maybe running too far too fast. I and my testimony are a casualty of the internet and it has been the wort experience of my life. I guess I am behind what MAsh is doing even though it does not sound like it. I really am. I have felt like I was deceived when I found out stuff on the internet so maybe i am overly sensitive.

No big deal.

[Senator]

Since the extant record seems to document several implements and methods used by JS, it would seem "sufficient" is a bit of an overstatement.

Not to mention the plates, right?

Well, at least it might have reduced the burden down to one tapir instead of two.

One a more serious note. I was unaware of other implements other than the seer stone and U&T. What were the the others?

[ttribe]

One a more serious note. I was unaware of other implements other than the seer stone and U&T. What were the the others?

The stone and the U&T are what I was referring to by the use of "several"; probably should have used "a couple". Nevertheless, there's some evidence to suggest that Oliver made his attempt at translation using a divining rod he had in his possession. I seem to recall (but could be mistaken) that there are accounts of him using nothing at all from time to time. Regardless, the notion that JS ONLY used the stone in a hat method to translate is not supported by the existing record.

[Lloyd Dobler]

He should read the OT before joining *any* Christian religion. His outrage should extend to any religion that accepts the OT.

One can easily find racism everywhere in the Bible if they look for it.

I don't know how to respond to this kind of statement. It seems so cold, without empathy. It also seems so dismissive of the reality of the problem a faithful black family would have with the Church and racism. I was listening to the speaking of faith podcast the other day. The title was "No More Taking Sides" here is the intro:

Robi Damelin lost her son David to a Palestinian sniper. Ali Abu Awwad lost his older brother Yousef to an Israeli soldier. But, instead of clinging to traditional ideologies and turning their pain into more violence, they've decided to understand the other side

[cdowis]

I don't know how to respond to this kind of statement. It seems so cold, without empathy. It also seems so dismissive of the reality of the problem a faithful black family would have with the Church and racism.

This is an apololgetic forum, not the social hall.

As an endowed member of the church, he made solemn promises, swore an oath. He has decided to abandon that promise, dragging his entire family down to a very dark place, a sacrifice to the petty god, Pride.

This is not a time for maudlin sympathy, it is a time to face the cold, hard truth of what he has done.

[Lloyd Dobler]

This is an apololgetic forum, not the social hall.

As an endowed member of the church, he made solemn promises, swore an oath. He has decided to abandon that promise, dragging his entire family down to a very dark place, a sacrifice to the petty god, Pride.

This is not a time for maudlin sympathy, it is a time to face the cold, hard truth of what he has done.

dude he did not do anything. maudlin?........this is crazy...he has not done anything wrong...the poor guy found out about the Church and its racist past and is having huge problems. How is this in any way his fault. At the ward level, dealing with these kinds of issues is difficult. Where is he supposed to go? What if he went to this board? If this board is not to help a guy like that, then who is it for? Holy cow. I am stunned. Pride? Seriously, am I talking to a robot?

Do you think there is value in blending sincere empathy with mormon apologetics? I think there is unless it actually not supposed to help people. Unless we were robots trying to help other robots. I have read this board for a long time, there is a lot of brainpower, where is the heart. I know it's out there! Good Grief.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

dude he did not do anything. maudlin?........this is crazy...he has not done anything wrong...the poor guy found out about the Church and its racist past and is having huge problems. How is this in any way his fault. At the ward level, dealing with these kinds of issues is difficult. Where is he supposed to go? What if he went to this board? If this board is not to help a guy like that, then who is it for? Holy cow. I am stunned. Pride? Seriously, am I talking to a robot?

Do you think there is value in blending sincere empathy with mormon apologetics? I think there is unless it actually not supposed to help people. Unless we were robots trying to help other robots. I have read this board for a long time, there is a lot of brainpower, where is the heart. I know it's out there! Good Grief.

Does this member have an issue with the racist past of the bible? If not why not?

[ttribe]

This is an apololgetic forum, not the social hall.

As an endowed member of the church, he made solemn promises, swore an oath. He has decided to abandon that promise, dragging his entire family down to a very dark place, a sacrifice to the petty god, Pride.

This is not a time for maudlin sympathy, it is a time to face the cold, hard truth of what he has done.

That seems unnecessarily strident. How about a little thought about leaving the ninety and nine to recover the one? In this case, this man and his family.

[Senator]

This is an apololgetic forum, not the social hall.

As an endowed member of the church, he made solemn promises, swore an oath. He has decided to abandon that promise, dragging his entire family down to a very dark place, a sacrifice to the petty god, Pride.

This is not a time for maudlin sympathy, it is a time to face the cold, hard truth of what he has done.

Damn, if I could have one wish from the genie it would be that you could tell that to his face...

and that I could be there to watch...

Has anyone ever watched "Bully Beatdown"? I submit a candidate!

[cdowis]

Damn, if I could have one wish from the genie it would be that you could tell that to his face...

You confuse sympathy with love.

Take a lesson from Nephi as he spoke plainly and clearly to his brothers. Not in anger, not with arrogance, but with plainess of speech. I care enough to tell him the truth on what he is doing to his family and himself. It may be the only thing that will save him.

May I suggest that you read and study the scriptures in this regard.

[Senator]

You confuse sympathy with love.

You haven't a clue of either.

[ttribe]

You confuse sympathy with love.

Take a lesson from Nephi as he spoke plainly and clearly to his brothers. Not in anger, not with arrogance, but with plainess of speech. I care enough to tell him the truth on what he is doing to his family and himself. It may be the only thing that will save him.

May I suggest that you read and study the scriptures in this regard.

Uggh. What was that about "not with arrogance"?

[Lloyd Dobler]

Does this member have an issue with the racist past of the bible? If not why not?

I don't know. I have not asked him that question. I just don't know how much something from the old testament would resonate with him. Like I get where you are coming from. I really think I do, I just think there is something missing from that approach. Anyway, I don't want to get off topic here. Also, and this will sound maudlin, but I just don't have much to add personally to this board. I don't think I bring much to the table and my brand of trying to find my way or discussing others is likely too general and informal. I have run the spectrum with my testimony the last three years. When I am angry (and I am angry and frustrated a lot), I post on what we would consider anti boards. Where else can a mormon go and vent and not be attacked? When I am not i still try to pray, I read this board, fair and other "positive" stuff and write in my journal. You could classify me as a hypocrite if you want but I am real and had what I would consider a very real testimony. I suspect there are many members who have been raised pre internet and are dealing with post internet or information transparency issues. I still go to chuch although it is hard. Working out my own salvation does not fit nicely into a box or go down a straight path.

Guys like MAsh are part of the solution. A board like this with its brainpower is part of the solution. However, I believe the solutions to the problems that apologetics are addressing run much deeper than having an answer for everything or some sort of plausible explanation etc. Something should be done at the ward level, some sort of help or some sort of group. People are just leaving and they are in pain and it is sad. Between the volleys of the apologists and the antis are maybe thousands of well meaning people that are not getting help. It is likely too late for me. I understand this board is no place for my whining, but maybe its a small reminder that it's not about the apologetics, the answeres, the anti,....it's about people and it always will be.