Pagan influence on biblical texts

[volgadon]

You forgot to adjust for inflation.

Cheesh. What kind of a scholar are you?

We do have high inflation.

[zerinus]

Alright, let's have some fun! Notice your claim:

So, according to you, there exists only slight resemblances between the two legal collections which are simply to be expected since both the Covenant Code and the Laws of Hammurabi are legal codes. Could you please start by explaining how this link is only a "slight resemblance" and is to be expected, since they are both legal codes?

Several points with that one. Firstly, the laws and penalties are not identical, as others have have already pointed out. Secondly, the majority of the codes are very different or even contradictory. Here is a site that gives all the code:

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/hammurabi.htm

I will reproduce just the first 6 here:

1. If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.

2. If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.

3. If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death.

4. If he satisfy the elders to impose a fine of grain or money, he shall receive the fine that the action produces.

5. If a judge try a case, reach a decision, and present his judgment in writing; if later error shall appear in his decision, and it be through his own fault, then he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case, and he shall be publicly removed from the judge's bench, and never again shall he sit there to render judgement.

6. If any one steal the property of a temple or of the court, he shall be put to death, and also the one who receives the stolen thing from him shall be put to death.

Not only are the laws very different, but the nature of

[Confidential Informant]

Zerinus, you truly have a dizzying intellect.

[Calm]

Would someone please define "Vorlage" as used in this context please. I am assuming this---a position in which a skier leans forward but keeps the heels in contact with the skis---is not the correct one.

[Zakuska]

One need only look at the fall of Satan to see the Pagan influences permiating the Bible.

Satan as Lucifer

A pagan myth of the fall of angels, associated with the Morning Star, was transferred to Satan, as seen in the Life of Adam and Eve and the Second Book of Enoch,[4] which the Jewish Encyclopedia attributes to the first pre-Christian century:[5] in these Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[6]

Early Christian writers continued this identification of "Lucifer" with Satan. Tertullian ("Contra Marcionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Revelation 12:7-10; cf. Luke 10:18).[6]

However, some contemporary exorcists and theologians such as Father Jose Antonio Fortea and Father Amorth in their experience and based on Biblical interpretations assert that Lucifer and Satan are different beings.[7]

In the New Testament the Adversary has many names, but "Lucifer" is not among them. He is called "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:13, 4:15; Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter 5:8, ?????????; 1. Tim. 5:14, ????????????), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent" (Rev. 20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24), and Belial (comp. Samael). In Luke 10:18, John 12:31, 2. Cor. 6:16, and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts 5:3; 2. Cor. 11:3; Ephes. 2:2), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9). Because of Satan death came into this world, being ever the tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:, even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. 4). The Christian demonology and belief in the devil dominated subsequent periods.[8] However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan fell from heaven "as lightning" (Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:7-10),[9] it nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

[Rob Bowman]

calmoriah,

A Vorlage is the original-language text on which a translation text was based.

Would someone please define "Vorlage" as used in this context please. I am assuming this---a position in which a skier leans forward but keeps the heels in contact with the skis---is not the correct one.

[zerinus]

One need only look at the fall of Satan to see the Pagan influences permiating the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

I trust what the Lord has said rather than what the Wikipedia says:

D&C 76

:

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him

[volgadon]

That was not a problem people of the United States faced at the time the Constitution was written. Society had progressed since then.

How very naive of you. What both Hammurabi and Deuteronomy faced in that regard is a problem in any agrarian society. Bulls are big, dangerous animals. people get hurt by them. Same goes for draft horses and other animals.

[volgadon]

There are still rules like that with dogs.

[zerinus]

How very naive of you. What both Hammurabi and Deuteronomy faced in that regard is a problem in any agrarian society. Bulls are big, dangerous animals. people get hurt by them. Same goes for draft horses and other animals.

You are being absurd.

There are still rules like that with dogs.

Exactly. Bulls were their problem, and dogs are ours. So they made laws about bulls, and we make laws about dogs. And that proves what?

[Joseph Antley]

Edit.

[volgadon]

You are being absurd.

You must be the proverbial pot.

Exactly. Bulls were their problem, and dogs are ours. So they made laws about bulls, and we make laws about dogs. And that proves what?

Umm, the laws relate to injuries or death caused by any animal.

Bulls are still a problem in agrarian communities. When the constitution was written, North America was primarily rural. You can leave your presentism at the door, along with your smug superiority.

[volgadon]

And that proves what?

Nearly forgot this. It goes to show how ridiculious that smug claim of yours is, the one about living in more enlightened times.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Rob,

The Mosaic laws use similar forms, address similar issues, and in some cases are verbally similar to the ANE law codes of the second millennium BC, notably the Code of Hammurabi.

Oh, Rob! That

[USU78]

Would someone please define "Vorlage" as used in this context please. I am assuming this---a position in which a skier leans forward but keeps the heels in contact with the skis---is not the correct one.

"Vorlage" in English

[Zakuska]

I trust what the Lord has said rather than what the Wikipedia says:

D&C 76

:

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him

[Rob Bowman]

Zak,

You wrote:

So do I. But it throughs a huge monkey wrench in the works for Rob and the Evangelicals that are claiming the Bible doesn't have any Pagan Influence.

Facts can be monkey wrenches in the works of caricatures or strawman arguments. Such is the case here, as I have explicitly and plainly acknowledged the presence of "pagan" elements in the Bible.

[zerinus]

So do I. But it throughs a huge monkey wrench in the works for Rob and the Evangelicals that are claiming the Bible doesn't have any Pagan Influence.

Assuming that is what they claim, then I agree with them. That does not mean that pagan practices are not mentioned in the Bible. They are mentioned and condemned. But the theology, the doctrine, the legal code of the Bible is scripture, and has no pagan influences. It is also perfectly possible (even inevitable) that many of the good principles, laws, and doctrines revealed in the Bible should be found among other nations and societies as well, the source of which would still be God, Who is the source of all good (see Omni 1:25; Alma 29:8; Moroni 7:12-13). The Bible is scripture; and as such it is "the will of the Lord, . . . the mind of the Lord, . . . the word of the Lord, . . . the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation" (D&C 68:4); and that is inconsistent with "pagan influence" as I understand it.

[zerinus]

Nearly forgot this. It goes to show how ridiculious that smug claim of yours is, the one about living in more enlightened times.

And hence our "doggy" laws must have been derived from their "bullish" laws! I get it.

[David Bokovoy]

. The Pentateuch actually recognizes that other nations have similar laws to the ones that God had give to Israel through Moses; but it tells them that their laws are superior! Here is a quote:

5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.

6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Excellent, I

[volgadon]

And hence our "doggy" laws must have been derived from their "bullish" laws! I get it.

In part. You however were claiming that the constituion of the USA did not have to mention bulls goring people because we live in more enlightened times. That is a bunch of bull, pardon the pun.

[Zakuska]

Assuming that is what they claim, then I agree with them. That does not mean that pagan practices are not mentioned in the Bible. They are mentioned and condemned. But the theology, the doctrine, the legal code of the Bible is scripture, and has no pagan influences. It is also perfectly possible (even inevitable) that many of the good principles, laws, and doctrines revealed in the Bible should be found among other nations and societies as well, the source of which would still be God, Who is the source of all good (see Omni 1:25; Alma 29:8; Moroni 7:12-13). The Bible is scripture; and as such it is "the will of the Lord, . . . the mind of the Lord, . . . the word of the Lord, . . . the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation" (D&C 68:4); and that is inconsistent with "pagan influence" as I understand it.

And yet Paul quotes a Pagan poet to support his Doctrine. Did the pagans get one right?

[zerinus]

In part. You however were claiming that the constituion of the USA did not have to mention bulls goring people because we live in more enlightened times. That is a bunch of bull, pardon the pun.

Can you go back tell me where I said anything about being "enlightened"?

And by the way, you know nothing about the Constitution. The Constitution of the United States doesn't deal with those kinds of laws. It doesn't tell you what to do with a murderer for example. Those kinds of laws are left to the individual states. There are no bulls running around in the streets of New York City as far as I know, so it is unlikely that New York will have any laws about bulls goring people. But in Texas who knows, there might be (or have been).

[zerinus]

And yet Paul quotes a Pagan poet to support his Doctrine. Did the pagans get one right?

You couldn't have read my post very carefully. Go back and read it again, and you well get your answer.

[volgadon]

Can you go back tell me where I said anything about being "enlightened"?

That is true, you did say

That was not a problem people of the United States faced at the time the Constitution was written. Society had progressed since then. But if you go to some parts of Africa, you will find that similar societies still exist, and for all I know they may have similar laws to deal with it.

As if laws for dealing with death and injuries caused by animals are hallmarks of primitive societies and your society is more progressive.

And by the way, you know nothing about the Constitution. The Constitution of the United States doesn't deal with those kinds of laws.

And that is what you should have pointed out, not that it was a more progressive society.