Pagan influence on biblical texts

[zerinus]

The authors of Deuteronomy were no doubt well aware of the strategy used to create the Covenant Code in Exodus.

The difficulty in debating with you is that you constantly take for granted a lot of assumptions that are not proven, that I would have to take issue with. I don

[zerinus]

That is true, you did say

As if laws for dealing with death and injuries caused by animals are hallmarks of primitive societies and your society is more progressive.

What I meant was that there are no more bulls running around in the streets of New York City, so there is no need to make laws about them. That is some kind of progress I guess; but if you disagree, that is neither here nor there as far as our discussion is concerned, is it.

And that is what you should have pointed out, not that it was a more progressive society.

By "progress" I meant that we don't have bulls running around the town any more. I didn't mean that it is a morally superior condition to be in.

[Vance]

The first rule of holes goes something like this, 'when you find yourself in one, STOP DIGGING!'

For some reason, the recent posts on this thread brought this to mind.

[David Bokovoy]

All of that seems irrelevant to the discussion we are having. I don

[Zakuska]

You couldn't have read my post very carefully. Go back and read it again, and you well get your answer.

You said "they are mentioned and condemned." Yet Paul mentions one and uses it to support doctrine rather than condeming it. You must not have thought of that? Huh?

[David T]

The discussion we are having (I wouldn't refer to your mere "nuh-uh" responses as a "debate")

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=teMlv3ripSM

[zerinus]

You said "they are mentioned and condemned." Yet Paul mentions one and uses it to support doctrine rather than condeming it. You must not have thought of that? Huh?

I did. I also said:

It is also perfectly possible (even inevitable) that many of the good principles, laws, and doctrines revealed in the Bible should be found among other nations and societies as well, the source of which would still be God, Who is the source of all good (see Omni 1:25; Alma 29:8; Moroni 7:12-13).

That is your answer.

[volgadon]

That is your answer.

So why is it inconceivable that they influenced holy texts?

[zerinus]

The discussion we are having (I wouldn't refer to your mere "nuh-uh" responses as a "debate"), in fact, this entire thread, deals specifically with the influence of pagan religious texts on scripture . . .

I was responding to one of your specific posts. The idea of

[changed]

pagan influences on Old Testament texts...

which came first, the pagans or the Christians?

Moses 7:1 ...our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God...

pagan influence on old testament texts? or was it Christian influence on pagan texts?

[zerinus]

So why is it inconceivable that they influenced holy texts?

It has not been demonstrated yet, and the arguments that David and others have presented have failed. What they call "influence" is not the same thing as what we observe in Paul quoting from a pagan prophet. If their arguments were proved true, it would undermine the scriptural and revelatory nature of biblical texts. It is a different kind of argument.

[Rob Bowman]

Changed,

From my perspective, influence could work both ways. However, pagans existed before Christians.

which came first, the pagans or the Christians?

Moses 7:1 ...our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God...

pagan influence on old testament texts? or was it Christian influence on pagan texts?

[zerinus]

which came first, the pagans or the Christians?

Moses 7:1 ...our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God...

pagan influence on old testament texts? or was it Christian influence on pagan texts?

Thank you, a valid point.

[zerinus]

Changed,

From my perspective, influence could work both ways. However, pagans existed before Christians.

We believe Christians existed before pagans!

[David Bokovoy]

It has not been demonstrated yet, and the arguments that David and others have presented have failed.

LOL! FAILED?!!! Failed, because you responded to the evidence I shared with "I don't buy it" responses?!!! The reason I attempted to move the direction of the discussion back to the focus provided in the OP is to help you realize how illogical your argument is for a Latter-day Saint. Because if you're going to counter the evidence I provided for non-Israelite influence upon the Bible with "I don't buy it" responses, there's really not much more to say. Is there?!!

I've lost interest in this discussion and have better things to do with my time.

I never said any of those things. I have repeatedly said that that is not what I understand by

[Zakuska]

which came first, the pagans or the Christians?

Moses 7:1 ...our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God...

pagan influence on old testament texts? or was it Christian influence on pagan texts?

In all honest... I see a little bit of both.

Joseph in Egypt read tea leafs for heck sake.

[zerinus]

LOL! FAILED?!!! Failed, because you responded to the evidence I shared with "I don't buy it" responses?!!! The reason I attempted to move the direction of the discussion back to the focus provided in the OP is to help you realize how illogical your argument is for a Latter-day Saint. Because if you're going to counter the evidence I provided for non-Israelite influence upon the Bible with "I don't buy it" responses, there's really not much more to say. Is there?!!

I've lost interest in this discussion and have better things to do with my time.

Your comments illustrate that you have very little knowledge of the BofA, so there's really no point in continuing. I would strongly recommend educating yourself in the topic of the Hor Book of Breathings, the Hypocephalus, and the presentation scene that is facsimile 3, which derives from Mesopotamian cylinder seals.

Good luck!

Yes, I had figured you would dodge your way out of it in the end.

[Ron Beron]

It has not been demonstrated yet, and the arguments that David and others have presented have failed.

I wouldn't take a vote on that...

[Ron Beron]

Yes, I had figured you would dodge your way out of it in the end.

David B. is an articulate and genuinely kind person who has surprised me with the latitude and patience he has shown towards your arrogant ignorance. I really hope you are not LDS because you have shown such codswallop in your discussion here.

[Rob Bowman]

Zerinus,

You wrote:

We believe Christians existed before pagans!

On what basis? Even the Book of Mormon doesn't use the term until the Book of Alma.

From a biblical perspective, Christians are disciples of Jesus Christ, those who are part of the fellowship or community of Jesus' followers (Acts 11:26).

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

You wrote:

On what basis? Even the Book of Mormon doesn't use the term until the Book of Alma.

From a biblical perspective, Christians are disciples of Jesus Christ, those who are part of the fellowship or community of Jesus' followers (Acts 11:26).

We believe that Christ, and a true religion based on faith in Him, predates His advent into the world, and goes back as far as Adam and the ancient patriarchs. As you have correctly pointed out, the Book of Mormon identifies as specifically

[Calm]

Yes, I had figured you would dodge your way out of it in the end.

There is a difference between dodging and disengaging....well, one has to actually be engaged with something in the first place and to be honest, it's really hard to see where you managed to do that with any of David's comments beyond a blanket assumption that the Lord doesn't work things that way...without any reason why he couldn't choose to allow such things to happen. He certainly doesn't have any problems with using tools that are hanging around that I can see or allowing his prophets to do the same.

Even in this age, we have plenty of pagan influence on our Christian worship, some more obvious than others. Just think Christmas as it is generally celebrated in the Church and in our homes.

Joseph Smith and other prophets talked about making use of truth wherever we found it. What is wrong with using pagan ideas if they are good ones, if they help people connect with deeper truths?

It's not as if the Lord is then welded to them for eternity just because he allowed the use of such things for a time. Brigham Young talked about Genesis as "baby stories" more or less; they weren't meant to be the source of our ultimate knowledge of God, but merely the beginning of it, to help our minds begin to come to grips with God's truths. Once we've grown beyond the baby stories, we can dispense with them and just keep the core teachings we learned with them to build upon greater knowledge and light. We are supposed to seek out God if we want to know the pure truth, the whole truth but we need to start somewhere and having a less than perfect beginning spot will result in people looking for more rather than being satisfied with the limited even if perfect truth they might have with such a method (it's hard enough to get people to seek out the Lord when there is a prophet and other spiritual leaders at hand that they can ask to do their spiritual work for them, if that work resulted in perfect responses why would most people not just rely on them rather than seeking to become prophets for themselves?)

If the scriptures are just one step along the way---and the beginning step at that--- and not the ultimate fount of all pure knowledge, then what is wrong with allowing the truth to be told in the stories of the people's times so they could understand it and not hold them to standards or behaviours that would have little meaning to them? If the pagans came up with ways of interacting with their fellowmen that made sense in the context of the true faith and so such concepts and laws were borrowed and adapted, what is the problem with where they came from if they worked for what God or his prophets wanted them to do?

If one assumes that God is the ultimate source of all good, of all truth, then what does it matter what methods or people God has used in order to get that truth to us? According to LDS belief, the Bible itself came to us through if not pagan hands, hands that did not know the full gospel, whose at times corrupt traditions heavily mixed in with pure doctrine to the point where a restoration was needed, yet you do not dispense with that particular 'influence'. What makes that influence from people who were not believers in the true gospel any more acceptable than the influence of those who anciently were not believers in the true gospel that we've arbitrarily labeled as "pagan" because of their particular mixture of truths and corrupt doctrines? At what point does it become unacceptable to look for truth in a relgious faith? What percentage of truth mixed in with false doctrines is acceptable to you? At what point do you refuse to accept truth based on the source of the truth being corrupt in some way?

From the scriptures it would seem to me that God usually requires his prophets to make as much use of their own abilities before he steps in (think Brother of Jared solving his problem leaving God just the final act of touching the stones, for example) to fill in the gaps, iow he asks them to use their current state of knowledge to create ways to seek out greater knowledge and blessings. Add to that method the fact that even the Chosen People were required to be a part of the greater community around them with all of those influences and resources (both good and bad) available to them, why would God spoonfeed the prophets all the ideas of how men should relate to others and God if much of it was already out there? I don't see God being someone who approves of lazy intellects even if they are spiritual giants.

[Ron Beron]

We believe that Christ, and a true relation based on faith in Him, predates His advent into the world, and goes back as far as Adam and the ancient patriarchs. As you have correctly pointed out, the Book of Mormon identifies as specifically

[zerinus]

You are making the assumption that paganism does not reflect a belief in one God. I believe the opposite to be true. The Book of Mormon also touches upon this in the dialog between Ammon and King Lamoni:

Alma 18: 2-5, 11, 18, 26, 28

I am sure remnants of true religion remain in all pagan religions, which does not really contradict what I was saying. I was more or less saying the same kind of thing. Nevertheless, in common parlance we associate

[Calm]

And what that means in relation to our subject of discussion is that the symbol, hieroglyphs, and facsimiles of the Book of Abraham which today we associate with