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Abraham 3 and Moses 4


Lamanite

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In Abraham 3 we read:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

In Moses 4 we have:

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying

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To redeem all mankind that not one soul shall be lost is what removes agency.

Because not one soul would be lost under Satan's 'plan', the mortal experience we would gain would be controlled and determined by Satan. We would all be forced to choose the right and obey God in all things despite any desire we have to do wrong.

The eternal law requires that we all, on this earth, have the same opportunity as each other to choose for ourselves what master we serve.

It also seems fairly obvious from what I read in verse 28, 'the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, and that day, many followed after him.

Anyways. In order to redeem mankind so that not a single person will be lost by their own choices, is to take away those choices that would separate them from God.

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How does one create a probationary situation where the probies all succeed?

What conditions must exist to ensure that not a single probie fails?

USU "No fair saying, 'Really good peer tutors'" 78

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To redeem all mankind that not one soul shall be lost is what removes agency...Anyways. In order to redeem mankind so that not a single person will be lost by their own choices, is to take away those choices that would separate them from God.

It seems possible, maybe even plausible, but it is clearly not outlined in the text. To come to your conclusion one must make inferences and assumptions. Also, how would Satan force us? In other words how could he remove the opposition that exists in all things everywhere. It is a natural law of the universe. It seems rather far fetched.

If we are playing speculative games I could just as easily guess that because Satan was like unto the first born he had a special capacity to endow us with a divine amount of honor and integrity, so as to always make righteous decisions. In this scenario, choice is always present, it's just moot because Satan has endowed us a divine character that renders the evil option obsolete. This seems a tad bit more feasible because Satan does not propose an option that would allow him to bypass universal law.

Big UP!

Lamanite

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If we are playing speculative games I could just as easily guess that because Satan was like unto the first born he had a special capacity to endow us with a divine amount of honor and integrity, so as to always make righteous decisions. In this scenario, choice is always present, it's just moot because Satan has endowed us a divine character that renders the evil option obsolete. This seems a tad bit more feasible because Satan does not propose an option that would allow him to bypass universal law.

Of course, there's that little problem of Shaitan being a liar from the beginning [Ether 8:15] . . . and we should, therefore, be very suspicious of his methods and motives.

How does he create a world in which nobody gets lost? Is it possible? Doesn't he propose that we would act contrary to our own natures, thereby proposing a bypass of the real and the possible?

And to what end? So he gets the applause.

Why would you give this weenie the benefit of the doubt?

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I don't see any mention of Satan trying to take away people's agency in order to force everyone to succeed, which is what I was taught while investigating the Church. I only see Satan offering to "redeem mankind." Am I misreading?

No, you're just not reading far enough. See if you can make it through verses 3 and 4.

In addition, here is what the Church teaches regarding these verses....

Moses 4:1
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No, you're just not reading far enough. See if you can make it through verses 3 and 4.

In addition, here is what the Church teaches regarding these verses....

Before getting into the opinion and commentary of Church leaders, I thought I would try to let the text speak for itself.

Now, I feel absolutely silly that I didn't pick up on Moses 4 vs.3

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; [emphasis added]

Thanks BCSpace, I would have completely glossed over that. I was bouncing back and forth so much that I missed the most pertinent part.

So Satan wants to destroy agency with a guarantee that not one soul should be lost; also, he requires all the glory.

Is it fair to say that anything else beyond this would may not be textual but revelatory? That is to say that the text is limited in what is known regarding Satan's plan to the above...?

Any idea's on the 1/3 of God's children not being accurate? I haven't heard it with any degree of frequency but I wondered if anyone else has heard of this.

Big UP!

Lammanite

P.S. So how do you think Satan was going to accomplish the destruction of agency?

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I understand Third Part to mean a Covenant Part.

The original phrase 'third part' in reference to the stars of heaven lead away by 'the dragon' comes from the Revelation of John (Revelation 12:4). The only use of the term in this connection in a Revelation of the restoration (D&C 29:36) is an allusion to and citations of it. It then becomes worthwhile to learn of what John understood to be referring to in an historical context.

The number '3', and 'third parts' of things were symbols regularly associated with covenant blessings, and covenant curses in the Old Testament

In the time of John the Revelator, the Book of Enoch was also very influential, and viewed as prophetic and inspired (it's quoted and alluded to throughout the gospels and epistles, most explicitly in Peter's and Jude's epistles - the early Church continues to view the book as containing doctrine and revered its prophecies of the Son of Man - the earliest post-Apostolic Church Fathers couldn't stop quoting from it).

In 1 Enoch, the account is given of an Angel who formed a secret combination with other angels (referred to in Enoch as 'stars'), who eventually made an 'eternal covenant' in opposition to and in rebellion of the Laws of Heaven. They left the heavenly abode ('Their first estate' as Jude alluded to it) on their own disobedient terms. Due to their covenant and rebellion and misuse of agency, these fallen angels were condemned by God to be cast into the abyss, a place of outer darkness.

Thus, a 'third part' - a part bound by a counterfeit covenant - were cursed, and cast out by God.

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I understand Third Part to mean a Covenant Part.

Do you mean there could have been three segments or divisions of people, and 'the third part' could mean "Segment no. 3" ?

If so, what are the other two segments? Would these be the three divisions mentioned in Abraham 3?

Those that lose their first estate

Those that keep their first estate but lose their second

Those that keep both estates

Then why didn't John say 'the first part' instead of the 'third part' ? (Rev. 12:4)

Wood

woo hoo! I did a indent!

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The text always says 'third part', not 1/3. I don't think it's necessary to believe that 33.3333% of the offspring of God jumped ship.

Exactly.

This requires, though, that there be a first part and a second part (and may imply fourth and fifth pats, as well).

Who formed the first part?

Who, the second?

Who knows?

Lehi

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Agency was freedom to choose the right, not to choose wrong.

If you go down that road be prepared to get trounced. I brought up the Millet and McConkie idea's that agency is the freedom to choose the right and was surprised at the resistance this idea received. There are other apostles and general authorities that share that view but it is not widely held on the board.

Big UP!

Lamanite

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I understand Third Part to mean a Covenant Part.

The original phrase 'third part' in reference to the stars of heaven lead away by 'the dragon' comes from the Revelation of John (Revelation 12:4). The only use of the term in this connection in a Revelation of the restoration (D&C 29:36) is an allusion to and citations of it. It then becomes worthwhile to learn of what John understood to be referring to in an historical context.

The number '3', and 'third parts' of things were symbols regularly associated with covenant blessings, and covenant curses in the Old Testament

In the time of John the Revelator, the Book of Enoch was also very influential, and viewed as prophetic and inspired (it's quoted and alluded to throughout the gospels and epistles, most explicitly in Peter's and Jude's epistles - the early Church continues to view the book as containing doctrine and revered its prophecies of the Son of Man - the earliest post-Apostolic Church Fathers couldn't stop quoting from it).

In 1 Enoch, the account is given of an Angel who formed a secret combination with other angels (referred to in Enoch as 'stars'), who eventually made an 'eternal covenant' in opposition to and in rebellion of the Laws of Heaven. They left the heavenly abode ('Their first estate' as Jude alluded to it) on their own disobedient terms. Due to their covenant and rebellion and misuse of agency, these fallen angels were condemned by God to be cast into the abyss, a place of outer darkness.

Thus, a 'third part' - a part bound by a counterfeit covenant - were cursed, and cast out by God.

This is what I'm talking about!!! Thank you very much.

Any references to commentaries?

Big UP!

Lamanite

PS I like people who joined MADB in '06 but only have 500'ish posts. For some reason I think that reflects positively on you.

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This is perhaps one of the most glossed over doctrines in the church. We are quick to assume without really understanding what is happening here. There are three facts-

1. Satan "said" he would redeem all mankind that not one soul shall be lost.

2. Satan sought to destroy the agency of man.

3. Satan was a liar.

Based upon those three facts we can begin to unravel the real truth. When Satan said he would save mankind that not one soul should be lost he was really saying nothing more than what was required by a "savior" to do. Christ wanted the same thing- to save all that the Father should give him to save that none should be lost- Read here-

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

(New Testament | John 6:39)

Now really this is the same thing as Satan proposed-

...I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost...

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1)

So, in reality Satan is proposing to do what a savior should do- save. At this point in the game, as far as we know, "all" of God's children were on the same side and thus all would need redeeming. The next part as follows gives us a clue as to Satan's real intent. Note how in the first part of the verse God states- "AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning" The key here is that Satan is the "same which was from the beginning". Moses has already had an ordeal with Satan just prior where he came before him and pretended to be the Savior- the only begotten, and commanded Moses to worship him. So what the Lord is telling Moses here is that the same "liar" who came before him pretending to be the Savior was the same "liar" who in the premortal realm said he would be the savior and redeem mankind. We can thus know the real intent of Satan. He wanted to usurp the Kingdom from the Father and His power by being born into mortality with an immortal body. Satan did not seek to save anyone- that was his lie! He just wanted the Kingdom and the power of immortality.

Now comes the second part how he sought to destroy the agency of man. What we must realize is that he is still trying to destroy our agency. He does not do this through forcing us to be righteous- that much is ridiculous. It is impossible to create a society where everyone is saved through forced obedience. That is not what Satan sought. We need to realize the basic fundamental principle of sin and it's destroying power and how the atonement frees us from that bondage. The antonym (opposite) of agency is "bondage". We can really substitute the word "bondage" for the term "destroy ones agency". You see, agency means that we have the power and ability to act according to freedoms principles. We lose agency as the "law" catches up to ourselves both spiritually and physically when we disobey. Through sin we go into bondage both spiritually and physically. This is what is meant by the "chains of hell". Now think about it- How much agency (freedom and ability to act) does a person have when they are bound down tight in chains? Not very much! A person who thus becomes bound down in the chains of hell can be said to be in "bondage" which is another way to say ones agency is either lost or surrendered- thus when Satan "sought to destroy" our agency it means that Satan wanted to destroy our freedom and bring us into bondage through lies, deceit and into sin fromt he which he would not redeem. How can we be sure- keep reading-

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:4)

Now the aspect of the atonement and how it applies to this war of agency. Satan wants to destroy our agency by bringing us into spiritual and physical bondage through sin. Without a Savior he would be 100% successful. So as we sin we become held captive in his power. we begin to lose our agency as we surrender it over to him and the laws of justice. This is why the importance of a just and true savior is made known. Let us read-

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:26)

There are two terms here that are important in the aspect of "agency". They are-

1. Act for themselves

2. Be acted upon

Number one is "agencey" while number two is the opposite which is captivity or bondage. Here the Lord tells us that when we sin we get trapped in this state of being acted upon. Without a Savior we would for all of eternity have no agency to "freely act". Because the Savior atones for our sins (the believers), we become free from the chains of hell which "act upon us" and once again have our agency intact. This also tells us something important about the principle of agency. Not only is agency the ability to choose, it is the ability to act within God's laws without pnealties that restrict. This literally means that the power and use of agency hinges off of a persons righteousness. It is, one could say, the "power given to the righteous to freely act and choose". It's literally a license to freely act and make choices within Gods kingdom.

In the end we can thus see that the war over our agency is still being fought. Satan hasn't changed any in this war, he is still seeking to lead people into captivity and destroy their agency while Christ is doing the opposite and leading men out of captivity and giving them their agency back. Remember this one principle- The war in heaven was fought over freedom and slavery. Satan wanted us to be his eternal slaves by causing us to fall and not offering a redeemer while Christ wants us to overcome sin and become equal with each other and free.

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Exactly.

This requires, though, that there be a first part and a second part (and may imply fourth and fifth pats, as well).

Who formed the first part?

Who, the second?

Who knows?

Lehi

Like many symbols, and most scriptural numbers, I think there's not a need for literalness. If 'a third part' is a symbol/reference to 'covenant part', it doesn't seem to me that there necessarily has to be 3 groupings.

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