Evolution in Sunday School Yesterday

[consiglieri]

the breast feedings at Church on Sunday

I can't believe you just said that, Zak!

I mean, this is a family board.

Prepare to endure an immediate non-suspension ala Jeff.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

The new missionary lessons changed style and approach...not what is being taught. That fact completely undermines any suggestion that teachers are free to freelance on any topic they want.

As has been said several times on this thread. Teaching the Gospel as outlined in the lesson manuals can be done with spirit, innovation, and passion. A good teacher can teach from the lesson manual in a way that engages, inspires, and changes the lives of the members of their class.

Good teachers bring standard lessons to life every week in thousands of Sunday School classes throughout the Church every Sunday -- all witout steering the lesson into pet subjects or personal agendas.

Regards,

Six

I fail to see how Consig did "freelance on any topic" he wanted. AND... If im not mistaken there are 5th sundays when the bretheren do leave it open for for basicly any topic local congregations feel like talking about with some suggestions of course.

[Zakuska]

I can't believe you just said that, Zak!

I mean, this is a family board.

Prepare to endure an immediate non-suspension ala Jeff.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Come now consig. This is a family board yes... But what is more natural, familial and LDS than a mother sitting in the foryer breast feeding her kid on Sunday?

Heck on my Mission they sat in the Middle of Sacrament meeting with them hanging out feeding the criers. I can remember how red I turned the first Sunday in Portugal on my mission. Utah Mormons are so Victorian!

Also remember my wife is Brazillian... we are more open and liberal that way. Even Paul used the analogy... why can't I?

Heb. 5: 12 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Thats my whole complaint about what people are saying on this thread, "stick to the basics of the Gospel" is a cop out and is prefering milk and primary topics to the "Strong meat" of the Gospel.

[gtaggart]

Chirp, chirp.

[cinepro]

I can't believe you just said that, Zak!

I mean, this is a family board.

Prepare to endure an immediate non-suspension ala Jeff.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

"Milk before meat"?

[gtaggart]

Chirp, chirp, joke, chirp.

[Zakuska]

I think now I'm Reaally getting what Consig was talking about... And I could not agree More!

[gtaggart]

I think now I'm Reaally getting what Consig was talking about... And I could not agree More!

And without even knowing me no less. Amazing!

By the way, have you seen Consiglieri anywhere? If you see him, mention that he still hasn't responded to Sam's question:

Surely you can justify why your Gospel Doctrine manual reads so differently from the one used by the men we sustain Apostles and Prophets. As you justify yourself, pretend you're sitting across from Elder Oaks or President Monson offering up your rationale for taking valuable church time to teach extended lessons on evolution or Mountain Meadows or the history of the policy on Blacks and the priesthood. In the hypothetical I'm proposing, see what you can do to convince them that the Sunday School hour would be a good place to discuss the Adam-God doctrine. (No fair trying to justify yourself to MADB participants. That would be too easy--too many cheerleaders here.)

Edit: Per Zakuska's excellent observation (see immediately below), I've removed the following words from my question: "the church's position on" because, as he said, the Church has no "official position" on evolution or on whether Will Bagley made up the part about Brigham being responsible for Mountain Meadows or on the origins of the policy on Blacks and the priesthood.

[Zakuska]

And without even knowing me no less. Amazing!

By the way, have you seen Consiglieri anywhere? If you see him, mention that he still hasn't responded to Sam's question:

Personally I already responded to that one...

for taking valuable church time to teach extended lessons on the church's position on evolution or Mountain Meadows or the history of the policy on Blacks and the priesthood

Since the church has no "official positon" on any of these items, how was Consig miracilously able to "teach an extended lesson on the Churches position"?

Does he have some direct line To God other teachers in the church don't?

I see the churches NON-ANSWER to all of these issues as a huge problem. Are we prophets of God or not? Why do we have stand dumb with non-answers?

Enos was able to get answers from God on issues. So was the Brother of Jared. So did Nephi. Are todays GA's so busy running the church that they can't exercise a little faith and get an answer? Spencer W Kimbal did just 30 years ago.

[WalkerW]

Other than one board member who got steamed...what other "ridiculous diatribes" are you referring to?

Just him. I have nothing against what you've said. You have remained respectful from what I read.

I think that you unfairly paint a number of people with a wide brush that misrepresent their views. I also think that you over-simplify and mis-represent the position of a number of folks on this thread.

Keep in mind, I wasn't saying all manual abiding is void of the Spirit. I was making an observation based on an individual's responses and his rabid obsession with the manual.

My Gospel Doctrine teacher is fantastic and he certainly sticks with the manual. But he is fantastic because he knows what he is talking about and has the Spirit with him.

Wasn't painting a brush. Forgive me for coming off that way.

I don't think anyone is advocating the memorization of lessons or rote word-of-word presentations of the Sunday School lessons in the same manner as the missionary lessons were once presented.

It most certainly happens though. I've heard teachers say, "The manual wants me to do [insert next step]..."

[gtaggart]

Does he have some direct line To God other teachers in the church don't?

That's what I'm trying to find out. The evidence suggests that he thinks he does.

P.S. See my edit immediately above your most recent post.

[gtaggart]

I was making an observation based on an individual's responses and his rabid obsession with the manual.

You're not talking about Consiglieri are you?

[WalkerW]

You're not talking about Consiglieri are you?

No. I was defending Consig.

[gtaggart]

No. I was defending Consig.

Does anyone know if they make a smiley face icon where a joke flies over the earnest smiley face's head?

[WalkerW]

Does anyone know if they make a smiley face icon where a joke flies over the earnest smiley face's head?

Not used to your posts just yet. I'll figure out your humor eventually.

[gtaggart]

Not used to your posts just yet. I'll figure out your humor eventually.

When you do, tell Consiglieri. He apparently doesn't think I have a sense of humor.

Nice to make your acquaintance.

[mbh26]

I don't know why this keeps getting hashed out. The official position of the church regarding "human evolution" is that it never happened. Man did not come from a lower order of species- that much is official LDS doctrine.

If it's official doctrine, it's certainly not enforced in any way. We've dug up every possible statement imaginable that some Church leader said at one time or another. The litmus test has become, what is the Church saying now? What are they saying now? Nothing! If they have a stance, it's a very weak stance. I thought evolution was against church doctrine too until I saw bishops and stake presidents who preached it outside of church.

[gtaggart]

Chirp, chip. Who let the Frog in? Chirp.

[consiglieri]

I have been asked to participate in the following role-play:

Surely you can justify why your Gospel Doctrine manual reads so differently from the one used by the men we sustain Apostles and Prophets. As you justify yourself, pretend you're sitting across from Elder Oaks or President Monson offering up your rationale for taking valuable church time to teach extended lessons on evolution or Mountain Meadows or the history of the policy on Blacks and the priesthood. In the hypothetical I'm proposing, see what you can do to convince them that the Sunday School hour would be a good place to discuss the Adam-God doctrine. (No fair trying to justify yourself to MADB participants. That would be too easy--too many cheerleaders here.)

Elder Oaks--Brother Consiglieri, President Monson and I have called you here to the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple to ask you some questions raised by JeffK and gtaggart that have us concerned. It seems that you are not religiously following the teacher's manual provided by the Church in your Sunday school lessons. Is this true?

Consiglieri--Guilty, your honor.

Elder Oaks--Are you not aware that this manual has been put together by the Church Correlation Committee?

Consiglieri--Yes, I am aware of that, and it is one of the main problems I have with it.

Elder Oaks--What do you mean? Are you not aware that the Correlation Committee is a group of LDS scholars appointed to this position by Church leadership?

Consiglieri--Yes, I am aware of that, too, as I read the self-aggrandizing lesson they provided for themselves in the teacher's manual. But respectfully, 100 chimpanzees banging away at typewriters in the Hotel Utah for a few days could come up with a better manual.

Elder Oaks--My son is on that committee.

Consiglieri--My apologies. I'm sure he is one of the smarter chimpanzees.

President Monson--(stifles giggles)

Elder Oaks--Are you not aware of the talk I personally gave in General Conference that a "superior teacher" will teach only from the approved manual?

Consiglieri--Yes, I am aware of that, too. Call me an underachiever.

Elder Oaks--We want you to be a superior teacher, and so we must counsel you to stick to the manual.

Consiglieri--You are not the only one with concerns. My concern is that the Church manuals seem to be a concerted effort by Church leadership to stifle actual learning by members of the Church. There is no substantive difference between the lessons taught to adult life-long members and those taught to the Primary children . . .

President Monson--(whispers in Elder Oaks' ear) I think he's onto us.

Consiglieri--(pretending not to notice) . . . I think it is a disservice to my adult Sunday school class to continue to teach Primary pablum to them. In fact, I think it's largely a disservice to the Primary children, as well, but I do not teach in Primary.

Elder Oaks--We are concerned that teachers such as yourself will stray from the manual and teach things that are not faith promoting and spiritually edifying.

Consiglieri--Do you mean you want me to teach the orthodox religion?

Elder Oaks--Well, no, not exactly.

Consiglieri--The scriptures are my manual. Do you feel the Correlation Committee has managed to improve on them?

Elder Oaks--Of course, not. I'm afraid you are being . . . unpatriotic.

Consiglieri--I teach only the truth to my class, as God gives me the light to see the truth.

Elder Oaks--Now, don't start quoting Abraham Lincoln to me.

Consiglieri--Nice catch, sir.

Elder Oaks--Thank you.

Consiglieri--He was the first Republican president . . .

Elder Oaks--I am aware of that.

Consiglieri--And your political affiliation is . . .

Elder Oaks--That's quite beside the point.

Consiglieri--Perhaps you are right. But after being a member of the Church for over 30-years, it is my experience that the Church manuals spend 99% of the time talking about 3% of the scriptures.

Elder Oaks--It is actually 5% of the scriptures.

Consiglieri--Okay, 5% of the scriptures. My class is aimed at giving the other 95% some air time.

President Monson--Well, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that.

Elder Oaks--(whispering to President Monson) I think I have this under control.

President Monson--(whispering to Elder Oaks) Sorry.

Elder Oaks--We have also heard you are teaching the Church's position on evolution.

Consiglieri--That is true, sir. Just last Sunday, I quoted President McKay's 1959 letter stating the Church has no position on evolution. There's nothing wrong with quoting President McKay in Sunday school, is there?

Elder Oaks--Certainly not. Stop being . . . unpatriotic. But the Correlation Committee did not approve that quote from President McKay for use in Sunday school.

Consiglieri--That would be another problem I have with the Committee. But surely I am at liberty to quote from general authorities in Sunday school?

Elder Oaks--Yes, that is acceptable. But why take up valuable class time in such an endeavor?

Consiglieri--Because I think it is important for members to know that they don't have to get bogged down in the debate between Creationists and Evolutionists; that members do not have to ignore science and argue against it to defend a position the Church does not maintain, but that many Mormons think is the position of the Church.

Elder Oaks--Do members think the Church has a position against evolution?

Consiglieri--Well, a lot of the members of my class did . . . until I set them straight . . . with the quote from President McKay.

Elder Eyring (sticking head in the door)--You know, my father would tend to agree with Consiglieri's position. Faith and Science are not incompatible. In fact, true Faith and true Science will always agree.

Elder Oaks--Hmmm. Perhaps you are right, Consiglieri. I am thinking I would like to call you to be a special advisor to the Church Correlation Committe in charge of Sunday school manuals. What do you think?

Consiglieri--I would be happy to help.

Elder Oaks--Wonderful. Here is your church-issued typewriter. Now, may I escort you to the Hotel Utah?

___________________

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Funny but a bit much...I use the manual as a guide and then teach the scriptures that support our beliefs. As you stated anyone can just read the manual. But the scriptures allow us to stay on point. Us the manual for the topic and teach the scriptures and all will be deified. But you know that already. Again you remain my "unofficial" Gospel Doctrine teacher".

[Bsix]

Here is how the conversation REALLY went down...

Elder Oaks--Brother Consiglieri, President Monson and I have called you here to the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple to ask you some questions raised by JeffK and gtaggart that have us concerned. It seems that you freelancing and teaching your own lessons that do not follow the topic or objective of the manual. Is this true?

Consiglieri--Guilty, your honor.

Elder Oaks--Thank you for your honesty.

Consiglieri--What would you have me do Elder Oakes?

Elder Oaks--Well, we'd like you to teach the plain and simple truths from as outlined in the manual. With your skills and talents, we know your lessons will be interesting and inspiring. But to help you in your efforts, we have made a few changes in your area.

Consiglieri--Oh, really? What...are...those...changes?

Elder Oaks--We have called Jeff K to be your new Stake President. gtaggart is to serve as your new Bishop. And, Bsix is to be the new Sunday School President in your Ward. Will you sustain your local leaders and this call from me to teach from the manual?

Consiglieri--Why...of course I will Elder Oakes. Why would you even think to ask?

President Monson--Thank you. We appreciate your support. Oh, and while we are here...I'd like to discuss some of your posts on the Mormon Apologetics Discus......................

[consiglieri]

Here is how the conversation REALLY went down...

Touche, my friend.

Except I think the last part went something like this . . .

Elder Oaks--We have called Jeff K to be your new Stake President. gtaggart is to serve as your new Bishop. And, Bsix is to be the new Sunday School President in your Ward. Will you sustain your local leaders and this call from me to teach from the manual?

Consiglieri--Well, Bsix is pretty cool and I could live with him, but I can't support a guy for Stake President who got suspended from the MADBoard for totally losing it, and gtaggart seems to think he's an eagle of some sort. Will you sustain my resignation from the Stake?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

You know Consig, this whole thread reminds of Josiahs reforms.

Why was all worship consolidated to Jerusalem?

So the Sanhedran could make sure the Priests out there teaching were following the manual precisly.

It turns the church into a bureaucratic humdrum, where youre affraid to bring something up for fear some twitty member will run off to the Bishop and complain about something you said.

[consiglieri]

It turns the church into a bureaucratic humdrum, where youre affraid to bring something up for fear some twitty member will run off to the Bishop and complain about something you said.

Consiglieries rush in where angels fear to tread.

[Zakuska]

Just be glad we are not living in Josiahs time. You might find yourself in a pool of blood on the floor behind the pulpit.