Ancient Amazon civilization laid bare

[notHagoth7]

The critics are right. Everything that can be discovered already has been.

Send all the archaeologists home. Ignore all recent discoveries.

Oh, except these.

"The geoglyphs are thought to date from around 2000 years ago up to the 13th century "

[notHagoth7]

From the New Scientist article on the discovery:

"Signs of what could be a previously unknown ancient civilisation are emerging from beneath the felled trees of the Amazon. Some 260 giant avenues, ditches and enclosures have been spotted from the air in a region straddling Brazil's border with Bolivia.

The traditional view is that before the arrival of the Spanish and Portuguese in the 15th century there were no complex societies in the Amazon basin

[notHagoth7]

"I have no doubt that this is only scratching the surface," says Alex Chepstow-Lusty of the French Institute for Andean Studies in Lima, Peru.

[volgadon]

It can be ignored until Reformed Egyptian is found. =)

[John Larsen]

The critics are right. Everything that can be discovered already has been.

Send all the archaeologists home. Ignore all recent discoveries.

Oh, except these.

"The geoglyphs are thought to date from around 2000 years ago up to the 13th century "

The Nephites exist in the archaeology of the gaps.

[Jeff K.]

Coincidently some claim the same regarding Christ.

Everything pretty much does exist in the GAP (including jeans) until indisputable proof is found. One size doesn't fit all. Or am I conflating the issue?

[notHagoth7]

Coincidently some claim the same regarding Christ.

Unfortunately, on his ministry, they have to dismiss corroborating testimony from three separate regions of the world:

1) Palestine

2) the Americas

3) ancient Europe

[notHagoth7]

The Nephites exist in the archaeology of the gaps.

Please explain.

What do you mean?

[Anijen]

Could not the events of the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica and just perhaps when Christ visited other places (like Peru), similar teachings were given?

Just because there is neat evidence at other location does not take away an almost perfect fit of the Book of Mormon events happening in Mesoamerica.

[katherine the great]

The critics are right. Everything that can be discovered already has been.

I hear people on this board say things like this quite often and yet I have never, ever heard anyone make the claim that everything that can be discovered already has been. Where does this seemingly false accusation come from? I've never heard it, never read it, never even heard of it except on this board.

[maklelan]

Please explain.

What do you mean?

He means that archaeological data that looks promising for Latter-day Saints always seems to be the vague and obscure data that hasn't been fully analyzed or is largely ignored. It's saying that Mormons can only point to shadowy areas and say "the Nephites could be in there!" John's just trying to be pithy without actually engaging the discussion.

[Jeff K.]

I hear people on this board say things like this quite often and yet I have never, ever heard anyone make the claim that everything that can be discovered already has been. Where does this seemingly false accusation come from? I've never heard it, never read it, never even heard of it except on this board.

It is derived from an implication. The implication being that we haven't found archeological evidence that indisputably points to a Book of Mormon civilization, therefore there is no Book of Mormon civilization.

[Doug the Hutt]

notHagoth7,

1. Thanks for the article. It's always nice to read up on these things.

2. The rest of your statement is essentially a hyperbolic joke which does its fair share of quote mining and maligns the intent, sincerity and intelligence of everyone not already marshaled behind Mormonism.

3. Shouldn't one of these oodles of ancient cities contain writings that can definitively link them back to Egyptian or Hebrew speaking/reading people? If the intent of Lehi bringing the brass plates across the world so that his people (meaning the greater group of people not just his household) would know the gospel, doesn't it make sense that there would be a propagation of that knowledge through written works, and doesn't it make further sense that we eventually will uncover plates or scrolls a la the Dead Sea Scrolls somewhere in the New World (granted, a big place) that will eventually vindicate the Prophet?

John Larsen,

There you go again -- making sense & all....(no seriously. It sucks that the previous interpretation of Lehites spreading all across the land got squished down to a few insignificant square meters somewhere in some Armpit of the Americas who made such an insignificant impact to genetics, culture, art, education, agriculture, war, etc. that they just morphed into a pre-existing group of non-House-of-Israel-natives that conveniently were never mentioned in the Book of Mormon and we'll never find their DNA or anything else...but....yeah....).

[notHagoth7]

notHagoth7,

1. Thanks for the article. It's always nice to read up on these things.

I'd say you're welcome. But being that I neither researched nor wrote it, alas, I can't take credit for it.

2. The rest of your statement is essentially a hyperbolic joke which does its fair share of quote mining and maligns the intent, sincerity and intelligence of everyone not already marshaled behind Mormonism.

But you mistake the intent of my thread.

I'm not insisting that these discoveries will vindicate the Nephite record.

I'm simply saying that such ongoing discoveries underscore the impatience of those who claim the Nephite record can't (and won't) be right.

If you think THAT somehow maligns the intent, sincerity, and intelligence of independent researchers, methinks thou dost protest too much.

3. Shouldn't one of these oodles of ancient cities contain writings that can definitively link them back to Egyptian or Hebrew speaking/reading people?

Actually, there are. Some of them were discussed in a recent thread.

If the intent of Lehi bringing the brass plates across the world so that his people (meaning the greater group of people not just his household) would know the gospel, doesn't it make sense that there would be a propagation of that knowledge through written works, and doesn't it make further sense that we eventually will uncover plates or scrolls a la the Dead Sea Scrolls somewhere...that will eventually vindicate the Prophet?

See above.

[Cold Steel]

The Nephites exist in the archaeology of the gaps.

I somehow doubt you have the knowledge and expertise to authoritatively make that statement. A more reasonable question might be, would we recognize them if we were to see them? With most of the rubble still under dirt and vegetation, it sounds as though you think we know enough to draw that conclusion. With most scientific textbooks becoming obsolete about every five years, that seems to be presumptuous. Still, most people who are this convinced that there is so little evidence appear to base it on an inverted type of "faith," much as the faith exercised by believers but to the opposite end.

Still, you won't find much evidence in the Amazon if the Nephites dwelt in Mesoamerica, and vice versa.

.

[juliann]

I hear people on this board say things like this quite often and yet I have never, ever heard anyone make the claim that everything that can be discovered already has been. Where does this seemingly false accusation come from? I've never heard it, never read it, never even heard of it except on this board.

Have you ever heard hostile critics admit that the discovering has not been done? In fact, that it is just beginning in this region? I've nailed Beastie down before and made her admit that more may be coming but she insisted that she had enough information to confirm truth or falsehood. I have never seen the usual suspects on a message board anywhere say that they have to reserve judgment on a particular matter until more came to light. They do indeed operate as if the all discovering has been done.

[juliann]

There you go again -- making sense & all....(no seriously. It sucks that the previous interpretation of Lehites spreading all across the land got squished down to a few insignificant square meters somewhere in some Armpit of the Americas who made such an insignificant impact to genetics, culture, art, education, agriculture, war, etc. that they just morphed into a pre-existing group of non-House-of-Israel-natives that conveniently were never mentioned in the Book of Mormon and we'll never find their DNA or anything else...but....yeah....).

Oh, my gosh. That is an embarrassingly uninformed blurt. Take some ancient civilization classes, dude!

[notHagoth7]

I hear people on this board say things like this quite often and yet I have never, ever heard anyone make the claim that everything that can be discovered already has been. Where does this seemingly false accusation come from? I've never heard it, never read it, never even heard of it except on this board.

Huh. We must run in different circles. I run across such comments often enough - directly or indirectly. If memory serves, Arc said/implied something in that direction as recently as the last week or three in the Viable Nephite Colonies thread. (Arc - no offense intended here.)

Here's one such quote

You have also not explained the fact that there is no record of such a language being used in the New World during Book of Mormon times.

In fact, the best research we have tells us that the only written language in the New World during the time period covered by the Book of Mormon was the Mayan glyph language - period.

These are facts, not speculation.

And another:

There is no evidence whatsoever for "exceedingly large ships' or open ocean marine technology of any kind in the Yucatan during that time period.

And another:

I see a great deal of evidence that it was a figment of his imagination and, so far anyway, no evidence whatsoever that it was not.

Such statements are sometimes backed by the assertion that no such evidence *WILL* surface.

Because they're convinced that the Nephite record was fiction.

Which is what Arc is asserting in the quote above.

I ran across a more specific comment to that effect within the last two or three days.

I won't quote from or link to it - having no interest in sparking board wars.

But such assertions and beliefs are quite common among those who believe the Nephites are/were fictional.

And I can't say I blame them for arguing from that position, if that's what they choose to conclude.

This thread is simply a friendly shot across the bow - a reminder that the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

[John Larsen]

I somehow doubt you have the knowledge and expertise to authoritatively make that statement.

That is why I seldom speak Ex cathedra, but when I do, watch out!

[John Larsen]

He means that archaeological data that looks promising for Latter-day Saints always seems to be the vague and obscure data that hasn't been fully analyzed or is largely ignored. It's saying that Mormons can only point to shadowy areas and say "the Nephites could be in there!" John's just trying to be pithy without actually engaging the discussion.

If I had buried that thought in 3 paragraphs of padding, would I be more engaging?

[maklelan]

If I had buried that thought in 3 paragraphs of padding, would I be more engaging?

Neither of them would have engaged the information provided. You're just explaining why you don't think you have to give the OP any serious consideration, whether you say it in one glib statement or a paragraph.