What does it mean to you to be a Mormon?

[Andrew Callahan]

In the words of Thomas Szasz: In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined.

That's because the rest of the world has a tendency to think that all self-identified "Mormons" are LDSs, which is clearly not the case. It's really to avoid confusion that we take this stance. If some anti Mormon in the early XIX had not coined the term, we would not care because there would be no "Mormons", but millions of LDSs, thousands of RLDSs, and hundreds of FLDSs.

Lehi

I think this is an excellent point (which I believe is true) that the term Mormon is one of those labels applied by "others" to members of what Joseph Smith and five others organized as the Church of Christ

From Wikipedia

Virtually every Latter Day Saint denomination claims to be the rightful successor to the original Church of Christ and claims Joseph Smith, Jr. as its founding prophet or first president. For example, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,[10] Community of Christ,[11] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite),[12] Church of Christ (Temple Lot),[13], and Church of Christ with the Elijah Message[14] all claim to have been organized by Smith on 6 April 1830, the date on which the Church of Christ was organized. Other denominations, such as The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite),[15] acknowledge that their organizations were created after this date, but nevertheless claim to be a re-establishment of the original church

Notice that none of those churches claiming to be the rightful successor uses the word "Mormon" in the name of their church.

And, within the Latter Day Saint movement generally, the New Order Mormons and the Reform Mormons use the term "Mormon" but neither is officially organized as a church and I would guess that members of those movements most likely attend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they attend a church that is a member of the Latter Day Saint movement.

[SlackTime]

The questions in the title speak for themselves.

I'm sure that you've been beat up enough about the Christians thing. You should have said "other Christians" and avoided that faux pas.

Elder LeGrand Richards in 1977 quoted the Prophet Joseph Smith who was asked this question by the President of the United States.

[quote name='LeGrand Richards,

[Cairbre]

I'm not LDS: I am Roman Catholic. Clearly I disagree with the Mormons here on a number of issues. I was simply providing an analysis of why one should be very clear if one chooses to define "Mormonism" as a category apart from "Christian", rather than as a category WITHIN Christianity. Usually this charge is tossed out as an inflammatory gesture, as a way of cutting off dialogue at the outset, or as a tactic intended to weaken the credibility of the LDS representative in the discussion.

Frankly, I think the assertion made by many sectarian Christians that "Mormonism is not Christian" is often sloppy and confusing. In broad, general terms, a "Christian" is one whose primary allegiance is to Jesus Christ and His teachings. Mormons qualify as Christian by that definition.

That said: IF one is defining the word "Christian" in terms of traditional, historic, orthodox Christian practice and belief, one can argue reasonably that Mormonism falls outside that definition. Of course, one then gets into discussion about whether the 'traditional, historic, orthodox' practices and beliefs of most Christians are in fact authentic to the original Christian faith handed down by Christ through His original New Testament apostles.

Unfortunately, most who intend to engage from the latter position do not define their terms with any great measure of care or thoughtfulness.

So as a Catholic you accept Mormons as Christians. But does the Catholic Church accept them as Christians?

And are Protestants still considered heretics by the Catholic church?

[Cairbre]

So you'd rather believe what some unknown person writes on a message board rather than to go to teh source? thats simply amazing to me - not to mention backwards.

It is not that I have never visited the LDS site. It is simply that at this time I wish to learn from the LDS about how they see themselves.

I have written many university papers that have started in the library but I never finished one without talking to the subjects of the paper.

[Cairbre]

I believe that we as God's children all have a right to receive personal revelation and inspiration through prayer and living worthy of that guidance. There are some people that I believe have been inspired and guided to say or do certain things for the benefit of others, by the power of the Holy Ghost. The distinction between someone who is inspired, and someone who is a prophet, is that the prophet is called and authorized to speak on His behalf. Certainly God speaks to others through promptings and directs them as He will, but the prophet He has called is the only one that can speak to the whole human race for Him.

It is the Prophet's right and duty to receive direction for that which he is a steward over: God's children and His Church in these last days before Christ's return. It is the right of each individual who lives worthy, sincerely seeking in humility God's direction, will find it for his life and the things he does.

To give an example, I believe a father has the right to pray over his family, with his wife, for their safety and to be led of God in what he should do. I think that a pastor over a local church has every right to pray for those whom he ministers to, they who listen to his words to be edified and uplifted by the Spirit. We can indeed receive personal guidance through prayer, if we are worthy of it. God doesn't just speak to His children who are Mormon, but all of them who will honestly seek Him, with real intent.

Others not of our faith certainly have access to the love and mercy of God. In that love and mercy which He has for us, He called a Prophet in 1820 to restore His truth and Gospel, so that eternal truths would again be known in their original form, and that His real authority be again established. In bringing about the Restoration, God also restored the sealing power and knowledge of the things we must do to be sealed as families, forever. The things God has done for us in these latter days is so humbling and awe inspiring when I ponder it. I'm sure that His mercy is not limited to His work in restoring the gospel, but it is the example that is at the forefront of my mind.

I almost forgot about you and this post by starting to reply to others.

I can see that your (and the LDS church's ) ideas about who can speak as a prophet are far more developed than mine. Muslims have no need, or at least God has not allowed place for them in Islam. We generally seek guidance from prayer, from the Koran, or from a religious leader.

I previously asked if Mormons recognize the prophet Mohammad as a true prophet. Could you answer that? What has the LDS church said on this matter?

[Cairbre]

For me, to be a Mormon means believing that salvation is through faith in, and obedience to, Jesus Christ who came to atone for the sins of the workd by His death on the cross, rose again on the third day, ascended to heaven, and will come again to judge the living and the dead according to their works.

It means being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

It means believing in the basic tenets of the Church, which are stated in the Articles of Faith of the Church which can be read here.

It means believing in the Restoration of the gospel in the last days through the Prophet Joseph Smith--which necessarily implies the Apostasy of the original Church of Christ.

In fine, being a Mormon means being a Christian in the truest sense of the term.

So there are varying degrees of Christianity. Mormons are the truest. As another poster claimed, Mormon Christians are favored over other Christians.

[handys003]

I almost forgot about you and this post by starting to reply to others.

I can see that your (and the LDS church's ) ideas about who can speak as a prophet are far more developed than mine. Muslims have no need, or at least God has not allowed place for them in Islam. We generally seek guidance from prayer, from the Koran, or from a religious leader.

I previously asked if Mormons recognize the prophet Mohammad as a true prophet. Could you answer that? What has the LDS church said on this matter?

May I ask you a question? This is not to be interpreted as confrontational. It's a question out of curiosity. Why is it Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Joseph Smith have all claimed to spoke to God, but Mohammad only spoke to Gabriel to receive revelation?

[Gillebre]

I almost forgot about you and this post by starting to reply to others.

I can see that your (and the LDS church's ) ideas about who can speak as a prophet are far more developed than mine. Muslims have no need, or at least God has not allowed place for them in Islam. We generally seek guidance from prayer, from the Koran, or from a religious leader.

I previously asked if Mormons recognize the prophet Mohammad as a true prophet. Could you answer that? What has the LDS church said on this matter?

Mohammad lived during the time we call the Great Apostasy. That is to say he lived during a time in the earth's history where we hold that God withdrew His authority from the earth, because men rejected it and altered it more to their liking. The last person to hold the authority to act in the name of Christ were His apostles, and when they were murdered, it was lost.

While it is entirely possible that Mohammad received personal guidance from God, it is clear in our belief that he had no authority from God to speak on His behalf, or to act in His name for anything. The authority of God was not restored until the early 1800s, when the religious climate was right for the truth to take hold and flourish in America.

[handys003]

Mohammad lived during the time we call the Great Apostasy. That is to say he lived during a time in the earth's history where we hold that God withdrew His authority from the earth, because men rejected it and altered it more to their liking. The last person to hold the authority to act in the name of Christ were His apostles, and when they were murdered, it was lost.

The Catholics have exception to the apostasy claimed by Protestants and Mormons.

[Cairbre]

Other posters have already spoken of the uniqueness of the LDS church as the restoration of truth in the form of the living word of God received through revelation by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost.

They have mentioned that this restoration included the reestablishment of the priesthood of God as it was first established in Jesus' twelve apostles.

They have spoken of the application of the word saint, but have not made it unique to the LDS church.

This is where I will diverge from their presentation and continue with additional information.

I do believe that the LDS church is the only church of saints. The threshold for becoming a saint is a dual baptism by the church. Other baptisms do not make a person a member of the LDS church and most other Christian churches do not practice the ordinance of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

None of the other Christian churches have the Melchizedek priesthood which is the authority of Christ on earth. Therefore, they are not recognized as saints. And unless my brothers here can establish that the LDS church acknowledges Christians as saints, they should not present it as being so.

Christ has only one church, only one community of saints, and only one baptism having the authority of both His priesthoods. Besides claiming the authority of the Apostolic priesthood of the NT, the LDS claim the authority of the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood of the OT.

Secondly, Christ has only one Israel. As our Articles of Faith clearly state, we are the gathering place of Israel.

But welcome to the boards, I hope you will learn with an open heart.

I suppose everyone here needs to learn. So many have different ideas about their common doctrine. Please don't take this as an indictment. Muslims don't agree with each other either.

I do see the common threads though...restoration, revelation, and priesthood authority.

Whether someone is a saint or not will have to be left as unresolved, or at least lacking unity. Maybe the answer is God will decide.

[Cairbre]

Mohammad lived during the time we call the Great Apostasy. That is to say he lived during a time in the earth's history where we hold that God withdrew His authority from the earth, because men rejected it and altered it more to their liking. The last person to hold the authority to act in the name of Christ were His apostles, and when they were murdered, it was lost.

While it is entirely possible that Mohammad received personal guidance from God, it is clear in our belief that he had no authority from God to speak on His behalf, or to act in His name for anything. The authority of God was not restored until the early 1800s, when the religious climate was right for the truth to take hold and flourish in America.

You didn't come right out and say it, but it sounds like you believe the prophet Mohammad was not a true prophet. But in another post you said anyone can receive revelation and inspiration.

You equate the right to act with the right to speak and then limit it to those with Christ's authority or the priesthood. But the prophet Mohammad never claimed to speak for Christ. His words came from God. And in the matter of what you call the "Great Apostasy" the Koran is clear in identifying both the Jewish leadership and the Christian leadership of Mohammad's time as deficient.

The bible prophets were not hampered in speech by the requirement of having the priesthood. Why is the limitation now made?

[Cairbre]

Mormons are God's chosen people, so he makes them like Himself.

It's not always pretty.

So you know, I am speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

You may be all right, Care Bear, but you make my Spidey-sense tingle like a four-alarm fire.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

First the administrators make me change my user name and now I have to tolerate you making fun of it.

[Cairbre]

Typically people like to define themselves, but also, it is not uncommon for people to also like to define "others."

Hence, Mormons claim to be Christians, but some folks who claim to be Christians don't feel that Mormons are part of the "true" group of Christians. Many Mormons find this definition by others frustrating, and cite their own arguments as to why they are indeed Christians, but frequently these arguments are unconvincing to those who are certain that Mormons aren't Christians.

Interestingly, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims its members are Mormons, but generally doesn't encourage use of terms like "Mormon Church" and cites even the Associated Press as evidence that only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Mormons. I used to have acquaintance with members of the RLDS Church, many of whom considered themselves Mormons and I have known members of other groups that split off from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who also consider themselves Mormons. I don't think every group that is part of the Latter Day Saint movement considers itself Mormon, but certainly several do, even though the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims those others "really aren't" Mormons, and finds the arguments of those others just as unconvincing as some Christians find Mormon arguments that they are Christian.

Further, at least some churches or movements within the larger Latter Day Saint movement are NOT or at least "do NOT appear to be" Christian, for example Reform Mormonism http://www.reformmormonism.org/lib/perspective_on_god_and_faith.htm and I am a member of another Latter Day Saint church that isn't Christian.

So, definitions of Christian and Mormon (like definitions of most other terms) do not appear to be static or universally accepted.

And, even within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there are varying opinions of what it means to be Mormon, and some of those have been pretty well represented in this thread. No doubt, in a church with more than 13 million members there are many other themes that could be cited. Something I would find interesting would be to see what "cultural" differences exist among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in different areas. In many senses it is said "the church is the same all over the world" but I have a strong suspicion that there are cultural differences. (One relatively minor one that comes to mind is that when I was living in a southern state, it was common for members in the pews to answer back to each speaker when the speaker said "Good morning" at the beginning of their talks with "Good morning." Some missionaries and others from Utah found this disruptive, disturbing and damaging to their ability to feel the spirit. A sister from Hawaii told me that a big "Aloha" was common from speaker to congregation and congregation to speaker in her home stake in Hawaii. Nothing like this was done in the stakes and wards I've visited in the Midwest, and in talking to folks from Utah about this, I am sometimes responded to with a blank stare of disbelief).

It all sounds very schizophrenic (except for the differences in greeting).

[Markk]

Hi Cairbre,

Right or wrong, I don't believe that Mohammad was a true prophet, or Joseph Smith, I believe that Jesus is God and the Bible the inspired word of God (I'm an EV). That said, how do we as people, not Mormons, Muslims, or Christians, test our respective faiths? From your faith how would you do that?

Take care

Mark

[Cairbre]

I'm sure that you've been beat up enough about the Christians thing. You should have said "other Christians" and avoided that faux pas.

Elder LeGrand Richards in 1977 quoted the Prophet Joseph Smith who was asked this question by the President of the United States.

How are members of the Church of Jesus Christ different from other Christians?

1. We believe in a Godhead composed of 3 separate individuals who are united in purpose. Some have called this Social Trinitarianism. We are not Classical Trinitarians

2. We do not believe in "original sin" as making man inherently evil. We believe that every man must answer for his own sins before God.

3. We believe that all mankind may be saved by obedience through the atonement of Jesus Christ. This means we do not accept the principles of TULIP.

4. We believe that there are required ordinances for entry into the Kingdom of God. Thus we are not "Grace Alone" or "Faith Only" believers, but rather Grace, combined with Faith, demonstrated by obedience or works. These basic required principles and ordinaces are: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of sins, and the Laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that priesthood is given by God for the benefit of His children, and that a man must be called of God by revelation, and by the laying on of hands of those who have the authority to give that authority. Thus, it takes more than a personal calling to minister to the congregations of the Lord, and it doesn't require a college certificate. Without the priesthood we don't accept any ordinance as valid.

6. We believe that the Church is administered by a heirarchy with precedence in the makeup of the primitive church. Therefore we believe in Apostles, Prophets, Pastors (which we call Bishops), and we believe that every person should be engaged in the work. So we try to keep congregations sizes such that every person can participate in some way. Thus we avoid mega-congregations.

7. We believe that God communicates with man through prophets who are responsible for communicating God's word to the world. Because man is imperfect, we recognize that these communications can have error and so each of us must use the Holy Ghost to know that what you understood from the communication is of God. This applies to scripture as well as to the counsel of our inspired prophets. Thus we believe the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. This applies also to the Book of Mormon and other scriptures God has given us. We do not believe in scriptural inerrancy.

8. We believe that the heavens are not closed and that God will continue to reveal His will to the Saints. This means that traditions and practices of the past can be modified and changed as God sees fit to bless His children. Thus we are not bound by what was done in the past, but as God directs, we can move forward. The Church is a dynamic organization that can change its structure, practices, and policies.

9. We believe that a man must worship God because of a love for God and not because he is forced to. Thus we claim the right to worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all others to do so as well. We feel it an important requirement that the Lord has given us to offer the truths we have to all people.

10. We believe in being good citizens in whatever country we live, in being subject to law designed to promote the common good, and in obeying honoring and sustaining the law.

11. We believe that Christ will return and usher in the millenium. That He is by right the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That the earth will be glorified and that peace will reign for a thousand years. We believe that one of the purposes of this Church is to help prepare the world for that great day.

12. We believe in seeking out knowledge, truth, wisdom, from wherever it can be gathered. While the Church is the repository of all knowledge essential to our salvation, there is a great deal of truth and wisdom to be gleaned from the teachings of great men and women of all cultures and philosophies. We look for all that is good and true and seek to incorporate those things into our lives. We can do this confidently when we are close to the Spirit of the Lord and have His guidance in our lives.

Now, some will say that all I have done in regurgitate the 13 articles of faith, and they would be correct. But the way I have restated them is significant in how I think they apply to the question of how we differ from other Christian faiths. I hope that this is helpful.

- SlackTime

I appreciate your topical based review, but I count only 12 in your list.

What is TULIP?

[volgadon]

I can see that your (and the LDS church's ) ideas about who can speak as a prophet are far more developed than mine. Muslims have no need, or at least God has not allowed place for them in Islam. We generally seek guidance from prayer, from the Koran, or from a religious leader.

In what way are the latter two superior to a man called by God and authorised to deliver God's word to the world?

[Cairbre]

May I ask you a question? This is not to be interpreted as confrontational. It's a question out of curiosity. Why is it Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Joseph Smith have all claimed to spoke to God, but Mohammad only spoke to Gabriel to receive revelation?

Isn't it enough to have spoken to a messenger of God?

[Cairbre]

In what way are the latter two superior to a man called by God and authorised to deliver God's word to the world?

Turning to the Koran would be like you turning to the Bible for answers.

Asking an Imam for his advice would be like you asking advice from your bishop.

[Cairbre]

Hi Cairbre,

Right or wrong, I don't believe that Mohammad was a true prophet, or Joseph Smith, I believe that Jesus is God and the Bible the inspired word of God (I'm an EV). That said, how do we as people, not Mormons, Muslims, or Christians, test our respective faiths? From your faith how would you do that?

Take care

Mark

How could a mortal Jesus have been God?

My faith requires my submission to God, so Muslims will be judged according to their submission.

[Markk]

How could a mortal Jesus have been God?

My faith requires my submission to God, so Muslims will be judged according to their submission.

Hi Cairbre,

If you have a Bible read Phil. 2 in context.

It says in short that Jesus was in every way equal with God, He claimed equality with God, and laid His "reputation of God aside and made Himself a man, and came to earth (John 1:14) and died for mankind's sins. Col. 2:9 says that Jesus is ALL the fullness of deity in bodily form. Both Matthew and Isaiah say that Jesus is Immanuel which literally means God with Us. Jesus is called both the Son of God and the Son of man, which indicates that He is that, both divine and human. I'll be the first to say I don't understand how that can be, but right or wrong it is what the Bible clearly teaches, and I believe it by faith and it is a very strong basis for my faith. There is more, allot more but this should get you going if you want to do more study.

My question to you was and is how do we, Christians, Muslims, and Mormons tell whether or not our faiths are true and real?

Great questions

Take care

Mark

[Cairbre]

Mohammad lived during the time we call the Great Apostasy. That is to say he lived during a time in the earth's history where we hold that God withdrew His authority from the earth, because men rejected it and altered it more to their liking. The last person to hold the authority to act in the name of Christ were His apostles, and when they were murdered, it was lost.

While it is entirely possible that Mohammad received personal guidance from God, it is clear in our belief that he had no authority from God to speak on His behalf, or to act in His name for anything. The authority of God was not restored until the early 1800s, when the religious climate was right for the truth to take hold and flourish in America.

I don't deny the apostasy. I do question your description of it as being a total lack of instruction from God to various individuals he chose to speak to.

Biblical prophets did not require the priesthood.

Mohammad was not given authority to speak of Christ, his calling as a prophet was not for the purpose of correcting the Jewish apostasy, he spoke of the religion of Abraham before there ever was an Ishmael or an Isaac, much less a Mose or a Jesus.

In my research I remember reading that even your prophets have honored the Protestant reformers as being inspired of God. Their action against the Catholic church is further evidence of the apostasy which the prophet Mohammad first spoke of in the early part of the 7th century.

Why do you accept the later rebellion of the Protestants and not the first statements on the matter made in the Koran?

[Cairbre]

Hi Cairbre,

If you have a Bible read Phil. 2 in context.

It says in short that Jesus was in every way equal with God, He claimed equality with God, and laid His "reputation of God aside and made Himself a man, and came to earth (John 1:14) and died for mankind's sins. Col. 2:9 says that Jesus is ALL the fullness of deity in bodily form. Both Matthew and Isaiah say that Jesus is Immanuel which literally means God with Us. Jesus is called both the Son of God and the Son of man, which indicates that He is that, both divine and human. I'll be the first to say I don't understand how that can be, but right or wrong it is what the Bible clearly teaches, and I believe it by faith and it is a very strong basis for my faith. There is more, allot more but this should get you going if you want to do more study.

My question to you was and is how do we, Christians, Muslims, and Mormons tell whether or not our faiths are true and real?

Great questions

Take care

Mark

Then you believe in a mortal God. I do not.

[volgadon]

Turning to the Koran would be like you turning to the Bible for answers.

Asking an Imam for his advice would be like you asking advice from your bishop.

And both are vastly inferior to having God's own messenger and representative on the earth today.

Trust me, if I had to choose between having a bishop and having a prophet, bye-bye bishop.

[volgadon]

Biblical prophets did not require the priesthood.

How do you know?

[Markk]

Then you believe in a mortal God. I do not.

No not at all, I didn't say that, in fact in Hebrews it speaks of Christs priesthood and why it is the only true priesthood is because He lives forever. Most Religions of the world teach that man has to do certain things to appease a God that is distant, Christianity and the Bible teaches that God came to us...in other words while you lay in submission to appease a distant God, I believe that God came to me, because He loved me that much (John 3:16) and did for me that I could never do on my own, and He saved me.

Are you going to answer my question? if your not ready to, I understand. But, I can see you do not understand Christianity or what the Bible teaches. I'm not asking you to believe what I do, only to understand what I believe. I will admit I do not know a whole lot about your faith, but I'm all ears?

Take care

Mark