In need of convincing LDS Scholarship

[ed2276]

Hi Scott,

I don't think Mike and I have ever played pool, and I'm almost certain that we've never slammed down a few root beers (with or without the root). But he's been a respected family friend for decades who I've always known as Mike. I have nothing but the highest regard for him.

If Bro. Watson is such a dear and respected family friend of yours, why don't you just go to him for the answers to all your questions, as he was directly involved in the matter, to resolve the issues about what did or did not happen?

[Brent Metcalfe]

Oh my, how could I pass up this gem?!

Hi Scott,

My apologies for breaking my rule to ignore your posts, but I just couldn't resist.

And if I may be candid, unlike your father, you are neither a former administrator at Church headquarters nor a Church member in good standing. Hence, a typical reader is apt to see your use of the nickname as untoward familiarity and very possibly an expression of disrespect on the order of that shown by hostile critics who refer to the Prophet as "Joe Smith," or hostile, anonymous strangers on Mormon Discussions who refer to me, a non-participant on the board, by a silly nickname invented by Daniel Peterson's malevolent stalker.

My father has little to do with my familiarity with Mike (though he certainly knows Mike). In the '80s, my brother frequently enjoyed lunch with Mike and Rod Foster (also a secretary to the First Presidency at the time). On a few occasions I also broke bread with them when I worked for Church Security. Mike introduced himself to me as "Mike," and I've respectfully called him that ever since.

If I may return your candor, I'd find your umbrage utterly repugnant were it not for the fact that I recognize your self-appointed role as an apologetic diversion. Rarely have I seen you add anything of substance to a thread, and this thread is no exception.

Happy holidays, Scott.

Now back to ignore mode.

My best,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com

(

[Daniel Peterson]

I'd find your umbrage utterly repugnant were it not for the fact that I recognize your self-appointed role as an apologetic diversion. Rarely have I seen you add anything of substance to a thread, and this thread is no exception.

Happy holidays, Scott.

Now back to ignore mode.

My best,

</brent>

Now back to Olympus!

(

[mfbukowski]

Now back to Olympus!

(

[Brent Metcalfe]

Warning: This post is devoid of substance.

Now back to Olympus!

Hey, it's where you're throwing the after-hour party.

Cheers,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com

(

[mfbukowski]

MF

Ok. I didn

[mfbukowski]

Warning: This post is devoid of substance.

OK

Just like the others, right?

[Mortal Man]

as the Great One has said, there's more to come.

Ooh goodie! I'll get yet another bag of popcorn.

BTW, I've decided to switch sides and cheer for you for a while, until things even up.

[rodheadlee]

I forget, what was this thread about?

[beastie]

MF

I have not seen that, I would appreciate a reference if you can. Whoever said that, IF they said that, is mistaken.

In discussing the significance of the Hill Cumorah Scripture Guide section, Scott Lloyd said (post 506):

The quote is from Guide to the Scriptures which is sort of concordance, not a comprehensive work. The portion about Moroni burying the plates is in a separate paragraph from the one containing the other things you mention, which contains scriptural references one may look up to read more about each item. In that respect, that paragraph is more like an entry in the Topical Guide or Bible Dictionary than it is like the narrative history you are trying to make it out to be.

In short, there is nothing here that binds the reader to believe the hill in New York is the hill mentioned in the Nephite record. I know you desperately want to read it that way, but that is your problem.

Again, at least one and probably two communications from the First Presidency's office, a quasi-official work and my personal conversations with Church Correlation confirm the Church espouses no detailed or specific geography for the Book of Mormon.

Then, in response to this statement of mine:

Ah, progress! At least we've moved forward from the denial that the quotation does explicitly associate the hill in NY with the last battle, etc.

Now, go back and reread 007's point on the topic. He wasn't arguing that the guide to scriptures is canonized and infallible. He was arguing that there is more support for the one Cumorah in NY than there is for the Ogden assertion in terms of church teachings.

Note my simple point. There is more support for the one Cumorah in NY than there is for the Ogden assertion in terms of church teachings. Hard to believe people here are actually contesting that, but that's the nature of the beast, I suppose.

Now, Scott

[beastie]

Oh, and btw, Scott, your argument that:

The portion about Moroni burying the plates is in a separate paragraph from the one containing the other things you mention, which contains scriptural references one may look up to read more about each item.

falls apart, because, as you can see here:

Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6: 2-4. Cumorah was in a land of many waters, Morm. 6: 4. Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah, Morm. 6: 6. All but twenty and four Nephites were slain at Cumorah, Morm. 6: 11. We hear glad tidings from Cumorah, D&C 128: 20. Joseph Smith took plates from the Hill Cumorah, JS-H 1: 42, 50-54, 59.

Joseph Smith taking the plates from the Hill Cumorah is in the same paragraph with the rest of the list.

If, as you claim, this is not meant to insinuate that the Hill Cumorah is, in fact, the same hill from which JS took the plates AND the same hill where all but 24 Nephites were slain, it is extremely poorly written, your attempts to make it

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I forget, what was this thread about?

Olympas??

[Uncle Dale]

Olympas??

The thread is about the importance or non-importance or a poorly-cited

"second Watson letter," which somehow negates a "first Watson letter,"

and a Carla Ogden fax which may or may not throw light upon the matter.

It is a tempest in a teacup -- and the LDS are warned away from such cups of tea.

I think, if we simply give Bro. Hamblin a few months "breathing room,"

he will not have to go to Mt. Moriah (and we will not have to go to Mt. Sinai

or Mt. Olympus) for the answers -- he will provide them himself.

In the meanwhile, let the fellow enjoy his visit to the holy land, and

let his NMI associates enjoy a peaceful holiday with their families.

For heaven's sake.

UD

[mfbukowski]

MF

I came here to this thread for one purpose, and one purpose only. Several posters

[ToGo]

Unfortunately since it is December 23 and I have not yet STARTED my Christmas preparations, ...

LOL. At the risk of hijacking this thread off onto another topic, I think this makes

• conclusively clear that mfbukowski is a deadline brinksman
• highly probable that mfbukowski is a bit of a procrastinator, and
• more likely than not that mfbukowski is male not female.

[beastie]

I appreciate your lengthy response and the time you took to compose it.

I also appreciate you detailing the various arguments, the details of which I readily admit I probably glossed over due to the incredible length of this thread and my perception that it was much ado about nothing. I still suspect that it is but I think you deserve the courtesy of a reply.

Unfortunately since it is December 23 and I have not yet STARTED my Christmas preparations, I have other concerns at this very moment, but I will respond in the next couple of days, most probably on the 26th or so. That will also give me some time to go back and check the references.

I do appreciate this. Have fun getting ready for Christmas, you man you!

I, on the other hand, have every ready and planned out, including what time to start cooking what. But then, I'm female. Neener neener neener.

[mfbukowski]

I do appreciate this. Have fun getting ready for Christmas, you man you!

I, on the other hand, have every ready and planned out, including what time to start cooking what. But then, I'm female. Neener neener neener.

I know- my wife has it totally together, with dinner etc, and I only really have 2 gifts to buy so it's really not that bad!

I'm outa here.

[mfbukowski]

LOL. At the risk of hijacking this thread off onto another topic, I think this makes

• conclusively clear that mfbukowski is a deadline brinksman
• highly probable that mfbukowski is a bit of a procrastinator, and
• more likely than not that mfbukowski is male not female.

All true.

Now I am REALLY outa here!

[notHagoth7]

The thread is about the importance or non-importance or a poorly-cited

"second Watson letter...

? I thought it was about a supposed need for convincing LDS scholarship regarding the historicity of the Book of Mormon?

[Mortal Man]

The Book of Mormon never tells us where Moroni hid his plates.

How could it?

[Uncle Dale]

? I thought it was about a supposed need for convincing LDS scholarship

regarding the historicity of the Book of Mormon?

Let me see how that would be articulated on a Sunday morning at meetings:

"Brothers and Sisters -- I know this church is true and I know it

is today being guided by Divine revelation in the person of our

beloved leader. I also know that the Maxwell Institute provides

true scholars, and that they will never lead the Church astray."

Dunno -- sounds a bit "modernistic" to me.

Let's run it by Bro. Meldrum, first...

UD

[Zakuska]

How could it?

Exactly my point. Of course maybe Moroni Gave the Young Joseph a treasure map that he followed. Pirates and buried treasures and demon gaurdians and all.

[beastie]

Pirates and buried treasures and demon gaurdians and all.

Sweet irony.

[Zakuska]

Sweet irony.

How is that "ironic"?

[beastie]

How is that "ironic"?

I assumed you were referring to "Pirates and buried treasures and demon gaurdians and all" in a somewhat sarcastic and mocking way. Perhaps I misread you.

But if you really were referring to "Pirates and buried treasures and demon gaurdians and all" in a mocking way, you may want to pause for a moment and consider words like "slippery treasures", and "treasure digging" and "guardian spirits" before you make such jokes.