Fireside in St. George this Sunday

[Hashbaz]

Mark Alan Wright will be spewing his crackpot theories about Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon this Sunday night at 7pm at the St. George Red Cliffs Stake, if any of you happen to live down there and are interested in such things.

[Sargon]

Darn. Too far away. Well good luck!

[Sevenbak]

Mark Alan Wright will be spewing his crackpot theories about Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon this Sunday night at 7pm at the St. George Red Cliffs Stake, if any of you happen to live down there and are interested in such things.

That's an interesting location for such a conference. Especially since Brigham Young said that the Nephites had specifically dedicated the St. George temple site, but hadn't been able to build it, that's why they built it there, even though it was in a swamp area.

He also said that the mountains of So. Utah and surrounding region were strongholds for the Gadianton Robbers.

Oh well, I guess he can hold his conference anywhere.

[Anijen]

Yeah, that Mark guy is crazy... Whats he thinking anyway.

Now I wish I could go.

[Hashbaz]

That's an interesting location for such a conference. Especially since Brigham Young said that the Nephites had specifically dedicated the St. George temple site, but hadn't been able to build it, that's why they built it there, even though it was in a swamp area.

He also said that the mountains of So. Utah and surrounding region were strongholds for the Gadianton Robbers.

Oh well, I guess he can hold his conference anywhere.

From what I understand, Orson Pratt explicitly taught that the Red Cliffs Stake center was dedicated by Zelph's cousin, 18 Rabbit, who was there on assignment as the Area Authority of the Lands Northward region (it's in the Journal of Discourses somewhere, I'm sure of it).

[Olavarria]

Im jealous; i wanna go.

[Daniel Peterson]

It should be clearly understood that Mark Alan Wright is a Mormon, and hence, by definition, a pseudoscholar. It would be best, if anybody is in the vicinity of St. George at that time, to put fingers firmly in ears and recite the mantra "I'm not listening! I'm not listening! I'm not listening! I'm not listening! I'm not listening! I'm not listening! I'm not listening! I'm not listening!" for a couple of hours. Doing so will induce a wonderful feeling of calm assurance. It's even possible that visions of Solomon Spalding will occur; they have been reported in some cases under this regimen.

[Sevenbak]

From what I understand, Orson Pratt explicitly taught that the Red Cliffs Stake center was dedicated by Zelph's cousin, 18 Rabbit, who was there on assignment as the Area Authority of the Lands Northward region (it's in the Journal of Discourses somewhere, I'm sure of it).

As humorous as that is, let's look at what was actually said about St. George.

Temple:

Early in December of 1870 Brigham Young came to St. George to spend the winter. Then on Jan. 31, 1871, he met with local priesthood leaders, presenting to them his plan for building a temple. The settlers gave a resounding approval and under the able leadership of President Erastus Snow, the plans were set in motion. This was an undertaking that would change the course of history in Southern Utah.

Brigham Young directed local church leaders to consider possible sites where the temple might be built. Two hilltop locations were proposed, but the group could not agree on which to recommend. When Brigham Young arrived he "somewhat impatiently chided them, and at the same time asked them to get into their wagons, or whatever else they had, and with him find a location (site)." He had them drive to the lowest part of the valley, a swamp infested with marsh grass and cattails.

But Brother Brigham, protested the men, "this land is boggy. After a storm, and for several months of the year, no one can drive across the land without horses and wagons sinking way down. There is no place to build a foundation." President Young countered, "We will build a foundation."

Later on while plowing and scraping where the foundation was to be, a horse*s leg broke through the ground into a spring of water. The brethren then wanted to move the foundation line twelve feet to the south, so that the spring of water would be on the outside of the Temple.

"Not so," insisted Brigham Young. We will wall it up and leave it here for some future use. But we cannot move the foundation. "This spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it (the Temple), but we can and will build it for them." (Lion of the Lord, page 237-238)

http://www.stgeorgetemplevisitorscenter.info/temple/templesite.html

As to Gadianton Robbers infesting the ancient Great Basin region, the accounts are too numerous to mention, from Brigham Young to John Taylor and beyond. But you can look them up if you so wish.

[handys003]

Mark Alan Wright will be spewing his crackpot theories about Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon this Sunday night at 7pm at the St. George Red Cliffs Stake, if any of you happen to live down there and are interested in such things.

I like to hear crackpot theories. I can't swim that far to catch it.

[notHagoth7]

That's an interesting location for such a conference. Especially since Brigham Young said...

It is amazing that:

1) such differences splinter out from a shared testimony that the Nephites were real and

2) we bear with one another's differences (or indifference) on that matter as well as we do.

[DanGB]

This sounds like it would be interesting, particularly if it brings into exposure new and enlightening scholarship. Unfortunately it is too far for me. I would love to hear a "return and report" on what he has to say and if it finally generates any interest on the subject. It would be something if the academic world finally finds a reason to have interest in the LDS scholarship claims of the Book of Mormon.

[notHagoth7]

As humorous as that is...

I got a chuckle out of it.

(Even if some of it may have been at my expense.)

As to Gadianton Robbers infesting the ancient Great Basin region, the accounts are too numerous to mention, from Brigham Young...

Perhaps some assume that what he saw instead was southern Utah's future.

[Hashbaz]

As humorous as that is, let's look at what was actually said about St. George.

Temple:

Early in December of 1870 Brigham Young came to St. George to spend the winter. Then on Jan. 31, 1871, he met with local priesthood leaders, presenting to them his plan for building a temple. The settlers gave a resounding approval and under the able leadership of President Erastus Snow, the plans were set in motion. This was an undertaking that would change the course of history in Southern Utah.

Brigham Young directed local church leaders to consider possible sites where the temple might be built. Two hilltop locations were proposed, but the group could not agree on which to recommend. When Brigham Young arrived he "somewhat impatiently chided them, and at the same time asked them to get into their wagons, or whatever else they had, and with him find a location (site)." He had them drive to the lowest part of the valley, a swamp infested with marsh grass and cattails.

But Brother Brigham, protested the men, "this land is boggy. After a storm, and for several months of the year, no one can drive across the land without horses and wagons sinking way down. There is no place to build a foundation." President Young countered, "We will build a foundation."

Later on while plowing and scraping where the foundation was to be, a horse*s leg broke through the ground into a spring of water. The brethren then wanted to move the foundation line twelve feet to the south, so that the spring of water would be on the outside of the Temple.

"Not so," insisted Brigham Young. We will wall it up and leave it here for some future use. But we cannot move the foundation. "This spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it (the Temple), but we can and will build it for them." (Lion of the Lord, page 237-238)

http://www.stgeorgetemplevisitorscenter.info/temple/templesite.html

As to Gadianton Robbers infesting the ancient Great Basin region, the accounts are too numerous to mention, from Brigham Young to John Taylor and beyond. But you can look them up if you so wish.

I hope I didn't give any offense - I was just having a little fun

Although I am an avowed Mesoamericanist when it comes to Book of Mormon geography, I actually don't have a problem with there being large numbers of Nephites inhabiting areas in North America, whether they were dedicating temple sites in Utah or building lookout towers in Daviess County. Alma 63:4 tells us that there was a massive migration of Nephites about fifty years prior to the birth of Christ. 5,400 men, plus their wives and children (easily 15-20 thousand Nephites) moved north. But that is the last we ever hear of them in the Book of Mormon. As to the Gadianton Robbers, I think the term became somewhat analogous to "Lamanite", in that it could be used to refer to any guerrilla group hostile towards the Nephites. I firmly believe that the New World events described in the Book of Mormon itself, however, all took place in Mesoamerica.

[Sevenbak]

It is amazing that:

1) such differences splinter out from a shared testimony that the Nephites were real and

2) we bear with one another's differences (or indifference) on that matter as well as we do.

It is indeed. I've been very outspoken as to what I believe on the issue, to the point of obnoxiousness, I'm sure. I'm trying to repent.

[Sevenbak]

Perhaps some assume that what he saw instead was southern Utah's future.

lol.

Not unless Redford is part Paiute.

[Sevenbak]

I hope I didn't give any offense - I was just having a little fun

Although I am an avowed Mesoamericanist when it comes to Book of Mormon geography, I actually don't have a problem with there being large numbers of Nephites inhabiting areas in North America, whether they were dedicating temple sites in Utah or building lookout towers in Daviess County. Alma 63:4 tells us that there was a massive migration of Nephites about fifty years prior to the birth of Christ. 5,400 men, plus their wives and children (easily 15-20 thousand Nephites) moved north. But that is the last we ever hear of them in the Book of Mormon. As to the Gadianton Robbers, I think the term became somewhat analogous to "Lamanite", in that it could be used to refer to any guerrilla group hostile towards the Nephites. I firmly believe that the New World events described in the Book of Mormon itself, however, all took place in Mesoamerica.

No offense at all. There are many different views here. Yours is similar to mine, as I believe that the mass migration north came from Mesoamerica to N. America. But I hold to a single Cumorah, as I also believe that the final battle was a long time gathering and fleeing northward.

And there is another mention after Hagoth and the ground expeditions are mentioned. Mormon says he was carried southward by his father when he was 11 to the land of Zarahemla, and it was much different from his own homeland, covered with buildings and people. As I read it, Mormon grew up in the land Northward, and its where he led his people to in the end for the final battles.

.

[Hashbaz]

No offense at all. There are many different views here. Yours is similar to mine, as I believe that the mass migration north came from Mesoamerica to N. America. But I hold to a single Cumorah, as I also believe that the final battle was a long time gathering and fleeing northward.

And there is another mention after Hagoth and the ground expeditions are mentioned. Mormon says he was carried southward by his father when he was 11 to the land of Zarahemla, and it was much different from his own homeland, covered with buildings and people. As I read it, Mormon grew up in the land Northward, and its where he led his people to in the end for the final battles.

.

But Mormon also tells us in Mormon 6:6

"And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

In other words, Mormon put all the plates in Cumorah except "these few plates" (his compilation that we now have as the Book of Mormon), which he entrusted to his son Moroni to keep safe by getting them as far away from there as possible. Why in the world would Moroni turn around and bring them back and put them in the very spot that Mormon felt was not secure enough for them?

[cinepro]

I got a chuckle out of it.

(Even if some of it may have been at my expense.)

Perhaps some assume that what he saw instead was southern Utah's future.

That's Bolivia, so I suppose it would be more supporting of a Hemispherical BoM geography.

[Sevenbak]

But Mormon also tells us in Mormon 6:6

"And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

In other words, Mormon put all the plates in Cumorah except "these few plates" (his compilation that we now have as the Book of Mormon), which he entrusted to his son Moroni to keep safe by getting them as far away from there as possible. Why in the world would Moroni turn around and bring them back and put them in the very spot that Mormon felt was not secure enough for them?

The problem with this theory is that Mormon didn't separate the abridgment from the other records for safety after the war, it was for protection during the final battle. Moroni had to finish the record as well as translate the Book of Ether. Remember that Moroni had to have access to the rest of the library, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to translate the 24 Jaredite plates, or the words of Christ from the 3 Nephi era, or the other epistles of his Father.

Also, Mormon makes it clear that the records would be safeguarded by God, that he is hiding them up unto the Lord. There was no reason for Moroni to fear Cumorah and flee as far as possible. All the records were safe. Cumorah was sacred ground.

Moroni also says in Mormon 8 that he will finish the record, hide it up, and THEN "whither I go it mattereth not." Notice the order.

We know there was a compartment of records protected by God in or near Cumorah. It's makes perfect sense to me that Moroni had access to that same cave, or "cavity of a rock" (I think Ether used it too), to finish the abridgment while he was protected. Moroni would have had to return the 24 plates and other records to the main repository after finishing the record. It makes sense that he did it there.

[MAsh]

Mark Alan Wright will be spewing his crackpot theories about Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon this Sunday night at 7pm at the St. George Red Cliffs Stake, if any of you happen to live down there and are interested in such things.

Good luck Mark. I'm sure you'll do a great job. I wish I could attend. I just came back from doing a fireside in Calgary myself. And boy, what nice people. Just plain wonderful.

Let us know how it goes.

Mike

[Daniel Peterson]

I wish you all the best for your fireside on Sunday, Mark, and a good turnout.

[cinepro]

Question for Mike, Mark, Dan and any others who give firesides on Book of Mormon geography in Utah:

In the last year or two, have you noticed any change in the nature or tenor of the Q&A questions that would indicate an increase in the number of "Meldrumites" in the audience?

[Daniel Peterson]

Question for Mike, Mark, Dan and any others who give firesides on Book of Mormon geography in Utah:

In the last year or two, have you noticed any change in the nature or tenor of the Q&A questions that would indicate an increase in the number of "Meldrumites" in the audience?

The matter comes up from time to time in personal conversations. I don't sense any real difference in the Q&A sessions at firesides.

There's no question that Rod Meldrum's ideas have made inroads and gained some converts. And I regret it. I don't care too terribly much what geographical model anybody follows, though I'm strongly convinced of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon, but I do mind (very much) the insinuation of some followers of Brother Meldrum that those who hold to a Mesoamerican model reject the prophets and apostles.

[cinepro]

The matter comes up from time to time in personal conversations. I don't sense any real difference in the Q&A sessions at firesides.

There's no question that Rod Meldrum's ideas have made inroads and gained some converts. And I regret it. I don't care too terribly much what geographical model anybody follows, though I'm strongly convinced of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon, but I do mind (very much) the insinuation of some followers of Brother Meldrum that those who hold to a Mesoamerican model reject the prophets and apostles.

"Brother Peterson, just so I'm clear, do you generally disregard the words of the latter-day prophets outright, or only when it comes to the Book of Mormon?"

[Daniel Peterson]

"Brother Peterson, just so I'm clear, do you generally disregard the words of the latter-day prophets outright, or only when it comes to the Book of Mormon?"

Nobody's yet had the nerve to ask me that question to my face, but, yes, that's about the way certain Meldrumites seem to view things.