Hoops22 Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 What does that mean? Hoops has constantly praised Paul as the epitome of Christian worship.I have never, ever, ever done so.
kantgomo Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 It is my understanding that those in Old Testament times were saved by trusting in the promised Messiah.
mnn727 Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 I've often thought many mainstream Christians should more correctly be called Paulites.
Gervin Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 Nor am I convinced that Paul was fully Jewish. He was Jewish "enough" to seek authority from the high priest to go find Christians in Damascus and haul them back to Jerusalem ... and Jewish enough to receive the authority to do so from same high priest.
Kiviuq Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 Without Paul, the apocalyptic religion of Jesus would have never become the religion about Jesus.
mnn727 Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 Without Paul, the apocalyptic religion of Jesus would have never become the religion about Jesus.Without the misunderstanding of Paul, the apocalyptic religion of Jesus would have never become the religion about Jesus.
Joseph Antley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Posted October 16, 2009 Without Paul, the apocalyptic religion of Jesus would have never become the religion about Jesus.Even without Paul, the Johannine texts still established a religion centered around Jesus.
Heartleap Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Paul said The Church was not the Church of Paul nor of Peter. The Bible says that Jesus is the one every knee will bow too. Discrediting Paul does not help the LDS, I am truly amazed that I am seeing the LDS in the act of not trusting the Bible as scripture. Jesus has direct access to his believers. We no longer need a special man to stand between us. I experience the Presence of Jesus often, he shows me things that are inexpressible. Paul had this gift of the Spirit we who have the Spirit would never deny him.Heartleap...
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 But so much of modern evangelical teachings rely on Paul - If we are "not Christian", I can't imagine them calling anyone who rejects Paul a "Christian".
Hoops22 Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Even without Paul, the Johannine texts still established a religion centered around Jesus.That's true. YOu're getting it. A pre-atonement, pre-resurrection Jesus. The Resurrected Jesus had a different plan in mind.
Heartleap Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 I've heard non-LDS Christians say something along the lines of, Why do we have to believe in Joseph Smith to be saved? Isn't Jesus Christ enough?As you know Jesus is the only way to the Father.This has always confused me a little. So, the question is, can someone reject Paul as an Apostle--and therefore the majority of the New Testament--and still be considered a Christian? Can they still be saved?If we reject Gods word we are rejecting God. The Bible including the New Testament is Gods word whether we like it or not. Why or why not? If we reject Gods word he will not know us, and we will not belong to him. non LDS Christians do not consider Joseph Smith a Prophet or an Apostle. The Book of Mormon has no authority or power to us. People can be saved who truly trust Christ, that is my hope for the LDS people. But to reject the inspired words of Paul is to deny the Spirit of God and that is unpardonable. Heartleap...Do not use this board to pass judgment on other people's salvation. Mod
Mike Reed Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 If we reject Gods word we are rejecting God. Because the bible is perfectly inerrant, right? Please. The Bible including the New Testament is Gods word whether we like it or not.All of the words in the bible are God's? If we reject Gods word he will not know us, and we will not belong to him. You have yet to prove your assumption that every word in the bible is God's. Most scholars reject claims to biblical inerrancy.non LDS Christians do not consider Joseph Smith a Prophet or an Apostle.And some early Christians rejected Paul as an apostle. Your point?The Book of Mormon has no authority or power to us.Says you. But if the BoM did have authority or power over you, then you'd be wrong. Right?People can be saved who truly trust Christ, that is my hope for the LDS people.Proselytizing again.But to reject the inspired words of Paul is to deny the Spirit of God and that is unpardonable. Heartleap...Again... says you. I don't buy into your narrow minded dogmatism, nor your naive perception of the bible. Sorry. I'm just not going to take your word for it. Therefore, you need to provide an argument of some sort... rather than preach from the soap-box.
Hoops22 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Because the bible is perfectly inerrant, right? Please. Not to be a nosey ninny, but, very few of us regard the Bible as perfectly innerrant. Most of us believe it is the inerrant Word. There is a difference. Just because you choose to not recognize the difference does not mean it's not there. All of the words in the bible are God's?What does this mean? You have yet to prove your assumption that every word in the bible is God's. Most scholars reject claims to biblical inerrancy.Really? Most? Do you have a tally somewhere?And some early Christians rejected Paul as an apostle. Your point?They certainly did. And these Christians, broadly, came from a Jewish mindset. Hence Peter's words about Paul's preaching being "difficult to understand."Says you. But if the BoM did have authority or power over you, then you'd be wrong. Right?I would be. Fortunately, that is not a concern.Proselytizing again.That wasn't proselytizing. You're too sensitive.Again... says you. I don't buy into your narrow minded dogmatism,Then take it up with God. He said it, we didn't. nor your naive perception of the bible.We realize that most of us here are presumptive to believe that we might have something relevant or insightful to say to many of you. Still, we battle on Nevertheless, Heartleap (and me) are not alone in our perception of the Bible. Some of those who agree with us might even be as smart as you - maybe. Sorry. I'm just not going to take your word for it. Therefore, you need to provide an argument of some sort... rather than preach from the soap-box.That's rich.I always thought you were better than this.
Heartleap Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Thanks Hoops I have had to work the last 2 days.Because the bible is perfectly inerrant, right? Please. It is not me that you have to trust, it is God. Nothing is Perfect except God. The Bible is fully reliable for teaching and correcting false doctrine.All of the words in the bible are God's?What's in the Bible is what God wants men to know. There is nothing hidden, nothing lacking. You have yet to prove your assumption that every word in the bible is God's. Most scholars reject claims to biblical inerrancy. God is my teacher and who I answer too. Paul's letters are anointed by God, they are as relevant today as the day he penned them. Gods Spirit is in his word, those who know him, recognize his words. And some early Christians rejected Paul as an apostle. Your point?Joseph Smith is not a prophet because he is rejected by Christians.Says you. But if the BoM did have authority or power over you, then you'd be wrong. Right?There is no "if" for me I have full confidence through Christ. It would have to be God that is wrong and I dont think he is. Proselytizing again.I Never told you to join my church or for you to leave yours.Again... says you. I don't buy into your narrow minded dogmatism, nor your naive perception of the bible. Sorry. I'm just not going to take your word for it. Therefore, you need to provide an argument of some sort... rather than preach from the soap-box.I think it's funny that you call me narrow minded after the last 2 years of what God has opened up to me personally. Lets just say I get to see a lot in worship and I will never again judge the gifts of the Holy Spirit as unattainable today. I speak from personal experience with God and personal Bible Study. I don't want you to take my word for it, I want you to discover what really is out there, things that no one but God will ever convince you of. He is truly amazing and praising him continually does bring about a very exciting life because he is attracted to our love and he lavishes it back to us. Heartleap...
Heartleap Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 It is not me that you have to trust, it is God. Nothing is Perfect except God. The Bible is fully reliable for teaching and correcting false doctrine.Oops it should say that is is fully reliable for teaching truth and correcting false doctrine. Heartleap...How do you edit?
Ron Beron Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 'Heartleap' writes,God is my teacher and who I answer too. Paul's letters are anointed by God, they are as relevant today as the day he penned them. Gods Spirit is in his word, those who know him, recognize his words.If Paul's letters were anointed (interesting choice of words since they relate little to words) then why would God accept the anti-Mosaic teachings of Paul and reject the pro-law words of his son, Jesus when he stated he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. There is too much contradiction in Paul's words and too little understanding of the ministry of Jesus to be taken seriously.
Joseph Antley Posted October 18, 2009 Author Posted October 18, 2009 How do you know that Paul's words are anointed by God?Why the letters of Paul and not the epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, or the epistle of Clement?
Joseph Antley Posted October 18, 2009 Author Posted October 18, 2009 Joseph Smith is not a prophet because he is rejected by Christians.Most of God's prophets have been rejected by the masses, including Christ himself. Were someone to claim to be a prophet, I would be much more worried if the mainstream Christians all did accept him."And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." (Revelation 16:5-6)
Hoops22 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 How do you know that Paul's words are anointed by God?Why the letters of Paul and not the epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, or the epistle of Clement?So the Bible is NOT the word of God. Okay, got it. When do the brethren plan on removing it from the cannon?
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 So the Bible is NOT the word of God. Okay, got it. When do the brethren plan on removing it from the cannon?Somebody has stuffed a Bible into a cannon??? Are they planning to shoot it out?!? I hope SOMEONE removes it!
Mike Reed Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Nothing is Perfect except God. If you acknowledge that the bible is imperfect, then on what grounds to you have to call people non-Christian for rejecting certain parts of the bible?The Bible is fully reliable for teaching and correcting false doctrine.Says you. What's in the Bible is what God wants men to know.But you just acknowledged that there are errors in the bible. Are you saying that God "wants" us to believe those errors?There is nothing hidden, nothing lacking.And you get this assumption from the Bible? How could you? For any passage asserting such could not apply to the entire volume, since it wasn't compiled yet.Paul's letters are anointed by God, they are as relevant today as the day he penned them.Says you. Gods Spirit is in his word, those who know him, recognize his words. And muslims would say the same thing for the Quoran, and mormons for the BoM.Joseph Smith is not a prophet because he is rejected by Christians.And Jesus wasn't Jewish, because he was rejected by Jews? Again... some early christians rejected Paul. I think it's funny that you call me narrow minded after the last 2 years of what God has opened up to me personally. Lets just say I get to see a lot in worship and I will never again judge the gifts of the Holy Spirit as unattainable today. I speak from personal experience with God and personal Bible Study. I don't want you to take my word for it, I want you to discover what really is out there, things that no one but God will ever convince you of. He is truly amazing and praising him continually does bring about a very exciting life because he is attracted to our love and he lavishes it back to us. Heartleap...More soap-box preaching. Not convincing. Sorry.
Mike Reed Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 So the Bible is NOT the word of God. Okay, got it.Answer Joseph's question.
Joseph Antley Posted October 18, 2009 Author Posted October 18, 2009 How do you know that Paul's words are anointed by God?Why the letters of Paul and not the epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, or the epistle of Clement?So the Bible is NOT the word of God. Okay, got it. When do the brethren plan on removing it from the cannon?I understand the question is difficult, but hopefully you can muster an answer.
Heartleap Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 If you acknowledge that the bible is imperfect, then on what grounds to you have to call people non-Christian for rejecting certain parts of the bible?God is perfect and so his word can be trusted.Says you.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness 2 Tim 3:16 (NIV)?? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ????. ? ???????? ? : ??But you just acknowledged that there are errors in the bible. Are you saying that God "wants" us to believe those errors?Don't think I did that. What errors are there? The scriptures you don't agree with? What does the Book of Mormon have that is more perfect than the Bible? And you get this assumption from the Bible? How could you? For any passage asserting such could not apply to the entire volume, since it wasn't compiled yet.Romans 1:18-20For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power.,so they are without excuse.Says you.You probably don't read them do you?And muslims would say the same thing for the Quoran, and mormons for the BoM.So you think the Bible is like the Quran? Then why do the LDS use it? To fool others into thinking you believe it? You can not fathom that Non LDS have the Holy Spirit. This is one thing that opened my eyes when I saw how much God loved everyone not just Mormons and when I saw that love coming from non LDS people I knew that I had been wrong about Christians. And Jesus wasn't Jewish, because he was rejected by Jews? Again... some early Christians rejected Paul. Jesus does not apply, he is God. Just because someone is rejected, does not mean they are telling the truth. Make sense? More soap-box preaching. Not convincing. Sorry.It's not about me convincing you, it is about you trusting Gods word the Bible. With out it you can not possibly know him.Heartleap...
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