MannyPaquio Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit was it God's plan to temp them? I know Satan was the tempter, but did God intend for Adam and Eve to be tempted?
Hoops22 Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit was it God's plan to temp them? I know Satan was the tempter, but did God intend for Adam and Eve to be tempted?It was a test, that's for sure. Whether or not you want to represent that as tempting I guess is up to you.It most certainly, absolutely was not part of God's plan.
Deborah Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 God's plan was that they be able to choose for themselves. Certainly God who knows the end from the beginning knew what choice they would make which is why the plan for the Atonement was already in place. It was necessary that they would eventually be tempted and make the choice they did so that they could learn the consequences of such and so that they could learn to discern the good from the evil.
Freedom Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 Adam and Eve did not sin and they were not punished for eating the fruit. There was a consequence for sure, but it was a good one. They rejoiced when they left the garden and happily started their life together. Adam transgressed the law just as a police officer transgresses speeding laws when racing to the scene of a crime. My children transgress the 'no shoes on in the house' rule because they must first enter the house before they take off their shoes. The eating of the fruit is most likely symbolic of coming of age, perhaps reaching puberty or adulthood.
CV75 Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit was it God's plan to temp them? I know Satan was the tempter, but did God intend for Adam and Eve to be tempted?God's plan is for thier (and our) return to live with Him in exaltation.To accomplish this aim, God permitted Adam and Eve to possess physical bodies and live in an immortal paradise, on a world into which Satan had been cast. This was in accordance with their desires, agreement and foreordination that had been arranged as spirit children in the pre-mortal sphere, and consistent with the plan of happiness God had taught them (and us) there.He gave them the means to live in this immortal state and enjoy His periodic companionship. He also gave them the means to die and lose His companionship. Each choice was embodied in the fruit of their respective trees, each one enticing for its own distinct attributes.They had the memory of God's commandment on one hand, and the temptation from Satan on the other. God said the choice was theirs; Satan actively imposed his own agenda and tempted them directly.Inherent in their choice to die, is the opportunity to experience a fullness of marital and familial love. Most will agree that this is worth dying for. Where God experiences this love in perfection as an exalted, immortal being, and we are His children, and He invites to partake, after the Fall of Adam and Eve He revealed the means to obtain eternal life with continued family relations through the Atonement of His Son.
AndyOne Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 The "Fortunate Fall" interpretation has always seemed to me to be the one that makes the most sense.
Hoops22 Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 God's plan is for thier (and our) return to live with Him in exaltation.To accomplish this aim, God permitted Adam and Eve to possess physical bodies and live in an immortal paradise, on a world into which Satan had been cast. This was in accordance with their desires, agreement and foreordination that had been arranged as spirit children in the pre-mortal sphere, and consistent with the plan of happiness God had taught them (and us) there.He gave them the means to live in this immortal state and enjoy His periodic companionship. He also gave them the means to die and lose His companionship. Each choice was embodied in the fruit of their respective trees, each one enticing for its own distinct attributes.They had the memory of God's commandment on one hand, and the temptation from Satan on the other. God said the choice was theirs; Satan actively imposed his own agenda and tempted them directly.Inherent in their choice to die, is the opportunity to experience a fullness of marital and familial love. Most will agree that this is worth dying for. Where God experiences this love in perfection as an exalted, immortal being, and we are His children, and He invites to partake, after the Fall of Adam and Eve He revealed the means to obtain eternal life with continued family relations through the Atonement of His Son.Any biblical evidence to support this rather flowery view?
Hoops22 Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 Adam and Eve did not sin and they were not punished for eating the fruit. Is this the lds position? Or the canadian position? Or what? The bible clearly and explicitly tells us that they both sinned. Or was this misinterpreted?
cksalmon Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 I know Satan was the tempter, but did God intend for Adam and Eve to be tempted?Yes.
cksalmon Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 It most certainly, absolutely was not part of God's plan.Hi Hoops--I'd say that it most certainly, absolutely was part of God's plan. cks
jcake Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 Hoopes,Do you believe they had a knowledge of good and evil so they could knowingly sin, before they partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Then what was the significance of partaking of that fruit? I confess that I still find the story of Adam and Eve very perplexing. Given that whether they chose to partake of the fruit and receive the knowledge of good and evil, which seems to go against the counsel they were give by God, or not to partake of the fruit, thereby remaining innocent and not fulfilling the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. I often think Eve has been so meanly treated in the condemnation of her act of partaking of the fruit, when, she would have done it without the knowledge of good and evil-thus innocent.Oh, well. Just more stuff to have on one's mind while waiting at traffic lights.jcake
jcake Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 Another thought that always enters my mind when considering the fall, would a loving God allow the existence of everyone on earth, their suffering, and all the other stuff we go through, come about due to the choices of a couple of mere mortals? I think that gives way to much power to them. I think that surely, God planned for us to come forth as we have. I don't think it was just a poor decision by two mortals, else what does that imply about the nature of God? jcake
kamenraider Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit was it God's plan to temp them? I know Satan was the tempter, but did God intend for Adam and Eve to be tempted?Why else would He have planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden?
Deborah Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 It most certainly, absolutely was not part of God's plan.In other words God is not omnipotent and he made a mistake in putting the tree of Knowledge in the Garden. What pray tell was God's plan if not for the opportunity to fall and repent and be saved by the Atonement?
CV75 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Any biblical evidence to support this rather flowery view?Genesis 5:1-2: "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." In Hebrew, "adam" is also a common noun, meaning man, or mankind. This scripture counters the idea that God intended to create only the couple Adam and Eve to have them blissfully dwell forever in the Garden of Eden. He intended for them to be the first parents of all adam, and this so that His same children who shouted for joy at the creation of the earth (Job 38: 4-7) can realize that joy in the resurrected flesh by becoming "joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8: 16, 17)." He made this clear in Gen. 3: 15, when He said, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed (Christ); it (In the Hebrew "he" for Christ) shall bruise (In the Hebrew "crush, grind"--in other words, utterly destroy) thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." You really can't effectively crush something by applying pressure with your head in an upward direction from the ground against that which is crushing it... This illustrates how the temporary injury Christ suffered in destroying Satan was overcome in His resurrection and ascension into heaven. That God talked about it immediately after the Fall shows that the Fall and the Atonement are part of His plan.The rest of the plan of salvation is mentioned in many places in the Bible, but I won't bog down this thread with all of that.Any floweriness on my part in describing these things is unintended, please don't allow it to be a distraction (forewarned, forearmed).Also note that the last verses of Genesis Chapters 4 (26) and 5 (22, 24) show how men called upon God and walked with Him. They learned this from somewhere--from Adam and Eve, and they learned it directly from God for their benefit and the benefit of their children. Likewise Adam and Eve acknowledged that they were to be thus blessed with righteous offspring (Genesis 4:25).
Hoops22 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Hi Hoops--I'd say that it most certainly, absolutely was part of God's plan. cksI will be rebuked by Mr. Salmon any day of the week. Perhaps we should agree on terms. Plan for what?
Ray Callis Hatton III Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Its commonly excepted by LDS that there were two opposing commandments. Multiply and replenish the earth or do not partake of the forbidden fruit. A contradiction, which God tells them to not to eat the fruit, "least ye die", when that is what he wanted them to do. God has contradicted himself on occasion for grander purposes. Like when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, even though human sacrifice and murder were abominations to Him. Now, in this case He obviously didn't want him go through with it, but God was telling him he did. Abraham learned one should obey God no matter what. Adam I suppose was to understand the consequences of breaking commandments at a time that he was just began to know good from evil.We see the Father as being all-knowing, and even all-wise: while some think God was blind-sided, we see His designing the Garden of Eden precisely as to give Adam and Eve every opportunity to eat of the Tree. And had we never partaken of the tree, we would never have know good from evil. We wouldn't have fallen without it either, but the messiah came to redeem us. Now, we are free forever. If God wanted us to go back to the way we were, they could have partaken of the tree of life and become immortal again. Which is why they had to be banished and an angel had to guard it from them.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 It was a test, that's for sure. Whether or not you want to represent that as tempting I guess is up to you.It most certainly, absolutely was not part of God's plan.I posit that it was part of the plan. Are you saying that Adam and Eve threw a wrench into God's plan? I thought God was all knowing. If He is all knowing then it makes more sense for it to be part of the plan. Any I really think trying to debate that is osme what pointless. To the OP God defintly set up a way for them to choose, but I don't think God tempted them any more than I temp my kids when I tell them not to get into the fridge.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Hi Hoops--I'd say that it most certainly, absolutely was part of God's plan. cksWe agree. Let this be known to all that CKS can now say that he agrees with mormons on this one point. How wide the devide???? Now if we can just nail down if Adam had a belly button or not.Note: don't answer that last question I am just being silly.
Hoops22 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 In other words God is not omnipotent and he made a mistake in putting the tree of Knowledge in the Garden. What pray tell was God's plan if not for the opportunity to fall and repent and be saved by the Atonement?Omnipotent and dictatorial are not the same thing.God certainly tested Adam and Eve, of that there is no doubt. Having failed the test - sinned - well you know the consequences from there. Scripture tells us that what Adam did certainly was a sin. I find it reprehensible that God's plan required man to sin. It certainly allowed for it, but did not require it. What life would have been like should Adam not have sinned, I have no idea. But our ignorance of this should in no way imply that we were required to sin.
Hoops22 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 I posit that it was part of the plan. Are you saying that Adam and Eve threw a wrench into God's plan?I wouldn't put it that way, but, yes, I would. I thought God was all knowing.He is. I don't see how knowing the potential for evil/sin, and even knowing it will occur disputes that. If He is all knowing then it makes more sense for it to be part of the plan. Any I really think trying to debate that is osme what pointless. It certainly does not make sense. It makes about as much sense as saying that God required sin to accomplish His purpose. That is not the Christian God.To the OP God defintly set up a way for them to choose, but I don't think God tempted them any more than I temp my kids when I tell them not to get into the fridge.I agree.
Hoops22 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 We agree. Let this be known to all that CKS can now say that he agrees with mormons on this one point.I'm suspicious that there might be more to Mr. Salmon's position. Perhaps not. Maybe you've finally turned him. How wide the devide???? Now if we can just nail down if Adam had a belly button or not.Of course he did. Everyone knows that.
Hoops22 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Genesis 5:1-2: "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." In Hebrew, "adam" is also a common noun, meaning man, or mankind. This scripture counters the idea that God intended to create only the couple Adam and Eve to have them blissfully dwell forever in the Garden of Eden. He intended for them to be the first parents of all adam, and this so that His same children who shouted for joy at the creation of the earth (Job 38: 4-7) can realize that joy in the resurrected flesh by becoming "joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8: 16, 17)." He made this clear in Gen. 3: 15, when He said, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed (Christ); it (In the Hebrew "he" for Christ) shall bruise (In the Hebrew "crush, grind"--in other words, utterly destroy) thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." You really can't effectively crush something by applying pressure with your head in an upward direction from the ground against that which is crushing it... This illustrates how the temporary injury Christ suffered in destroying Satan was overcome in His resurrection and ascension into heaven. That God talked about it immediately after the Fall shows that the Fall and the Atonement are part of His plan.The rest of the plan of salvation is mentioned in many places in the Bible, but I won't bog down this thread with all of that.Any floweriness on my part in describing these things is unintended, please don't allow it to be a distraction (forewarned, forearmed).Also note that the last verses of Genesis Chapters 4 (26) and 5 (22, 24) show how men called upon God and walked with Him. They learned this from somewhere--from Adam and Eve, and they learned it directly from God for their benefit and the benefit of their children. Likewise Adam and Eve acknowledged that they were to be thus blessed with righteous offspring (Genesis 4:25).I don't see much with which I disagree. I also don't see much in here that required man to sin for God to accomplish His purposes. Actually, I don't see anything that supports that idea.
Hoops22 Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Hi Hoops--I'd say that it most certainly, absolutely was part of God's plan. cksJust to be clear, Mr. Salmon, I am saying that sinning was not part of God's plan. The test certainly was.
Freedom Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Is this the lds position? Or the canadian position? Or what? The bible clearly and explicitly tells us that they both sinned. Or was this misinterpreted?I think you are misinterpreting it. The bible says they transgressed. This is not sin. Sin is a type of transgression. For example, if I were to drive my car 10 miles over the speed limit I would be transgressing the law and sinning. If a police man drove 10 miles over the speed limit with his lights and sirons on, he would be transgressing the law but not sinning. To transgress simply means to step over. They ate of the fruit gaining a knowledge of good and devil and they where then taught the facts of life. No punishment. Where in the bible does it say that Gods plan was disrupted?
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