The â??Testâ?� of a Prophetâ?¦

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have (over the years) been beat over the head with the scripture cited belowâ?¦

Deu 18: 20-22

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Many call this the â??test of a prophetâ?. They love to quote this a â??disqualifierâ? for our Latter-day Prophets. The premise being that if a â??prophetâ? is ever wrong about anything then he is wrong (or false) about everything!

I am reminded of a proverb that was used in countless sermons while I was growing upâ?¦â?Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Prov. 22:6

6 train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Even as they spoke the words, they (the pastors) knew of many instances where this was not true. There are many other examples of scriptures that make such declarations which (in the lives of some) never come to pass.

â??Ask and ye shall receiveâ?, is another example.

Why does the â??testâ? not extend to the Prophets of the Bible?

I hope the point is madeâ?¦

Comments?

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

That self same "Test" would make Jesus the Christ false. I'm not so sure our critic friends really want to go there.

[Jaybear]

Why does the â??testâ? not extend to the Prophets of the Bible?

I hope the point is madeâ?¦

Comments?

If you have a preexisting belief that the bible is the word of God, then you have no need to test the prophetic mantle of the biblical prophets.

That would be like asking Mormons to devise a test to see if Nephi was a prophet.

[BCSpace]

â??Ask and ye shall receiveâ?, is another example.

Why does the â??testâ? not extend to the Prophets of the Bible?

Or God Himself. What a lot of other Christians don't realize is that prophecy is conditional. In other words, God can and does go back on His word based on our performance (works!). This principle is explicitly taught in Jeremiah 18:1-10

[blueadept]

I was curious what my Catholic NAB bible had to say about this

[15] A prophet like me: from the context (opposition to the pagan soothsayers) it seems that Moses is referring in general to all the true prophets who were to succeed him. But since Christ is the Great Prophet in whom the prophetic office finds its fulfillment and completion, this passage was understood in a special Messianic sense both by the Jews (John 6:14; 7:40) and by the Apostles (Acts 3:22; 7:37).

I'm sure LDS would disagree with the conclusions made in John and Acts in regards to continuing prophets but it does help me understand the "test" of the Prophet though........

[thesometimesaint]

blueadept:

Did not Christ give us Prophets?

Ephesians 4:11

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

[blueadept]

blueadept:

Did not Christ give us Prophets?

Ephesians 4:11

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

You referenced Paul saying it. Did Christ say it from the four Gospels (MMLJ) in regards to prophets?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You referenced Paul saying it. Did Christ say it from the four Gospels (MMLJ) in regards to prophets?

Paul, was intructed by Christ himself to a large degree. I think we can trust the source.

[blueadept]

Romans 12:6-8

May help in understanding Ephesians 4:11

6

Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: 4 if prophecy, in proportion to the faith;

7

if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching;

8

if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, 5 with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

[Scottie]

OR, could it mean that ALL prophets are false?? That NONE of them are capable of receiving prophecy?

If there is one thing I've learned from LDS apologists is that there is no test which can invalidate a prophet.

Let me ask you, what test would you give to another prophet to determine if he were false?

[thesometimesaint]

Blueadept:

I think the further we get from the verses immediately following the verse in question the further we get from what Paul meant.

Ephesians 4:11-15

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

[Thunderfire]

Or God Himself. What a lot of other Christians don't realize is that prophecy is conditional. In other words, God can and does go back on His word based on our performance (works!). This principle is explicitly taught in Jeremiah 18:1-10

In April of 1832, Joseph Smith brought forth as the mind and will of God something similar: "I, the Lord, and bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise..." Doctrine and Covenants 81:3b RLDS/LDS 82)

But this is a little different than prophecy. I would not say that all prophecy is conditional, because much of prophecy is God announcing through his prophets what he is going to do (Amos 3:7). Some of this then is God saying what his plans are which cannot be frustrated by man (Doctrine and Covenants 2a RLDS/LDS 3). Here is a great example to consider:

"The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellowman, neither trust in the arm of flesh, but that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; that faith also might increase in the earth; that mine everlasting covenant might be established; that the fullness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple, unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers..." Doctrine and Covenants 1:4c-e/LDS 1)

So this is prophecy, yet also something which will happen regardless of what man tries to do to stop it. For that matter, the more man tries to stop this the greater the calamity faced when God still raises us to weak things to break it down. Anyway, just some thoughts to consider...

[Kevin Christensen]

OR, could it mean that ALL prophets are false?? That NONE of them are capable of receiving prophecy?

If there is one thing I've learned from LDS apologists is that there is no test which can invalidate a prophet.

Let me ask you, what test would you give to another prophet to determine if he were false?

I located 28 Biblical tests for true and false prophets.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/prophettestsfv5.pdf

The best known (regarding prophecy) is the one most heavily qualified by precept and example within the Bible itself. But there is much more to work with.

Because falsification and verification both have limits, particularly when dealing with general propositions, I prefer the comprehensive approach, considering all of the tests, rather than just one with which someone may hope to may a obtain a quick kill or score. Collectively, I find that they do narrow the field of candidates to Joseph Smith and his successors. Someone who doesn't like that answer, of course, can easily defer to an arbitrarily defined criteria or standard that gives an answer that they like.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA