Plates of Laban

[Cold Steel]

As I was just re-reading the book of 1st Nephi, I came across his description of the plates of Laban, which contained not only the words of Moses and other prophets, but "many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah." Since Jeremiah was a contemporary of Lehi and he warned of many of the same things Lehi did, why were his words included with those of the others? They must have been of some worth to have been included.

[Sevenbak]

I've wondered about that too, especially since Laban was a wicked man and it was his family who kept the record.

But I don't think it was his family who only wrote the record. When Zoram went with Nephi, he was taking the record to the supposed "Elders of the Jews". My guess is was in one of these type of meetings with Laban where the prophecies of Jeremiah were included in the record.

JMHO

[katherine the great]

As I was just re-reading the book of 1st Nephi, I came across his description of the plates of Laban, which contained not only the words of Moses and other prophets, but "many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah." Since Jeremiah was a contemporary of Lehi and he warned of many of the same things Lehi did, why were his words included with those of the others? They must have been of some worth to have been included.

Jeremiah had already been a prophet for some 25 years before Lehi's first recorded prophecy. He had assisted Josiah during the reform period. The prophecies must have been recorded during this period. It actually makes quite a bit of sense that the Lord would have warned the people during this time to not turn back to their old ways.

[cinepro]

This is the first I've considered it, but even with a 25 year gap, it's interesting that his prophecies had been esteemed to the point of being engraved and included in Laban's set of records. That's a pretty efficient method of preservation and canonization (and consolidation). Perhaps the Lord was guiding the process to ensure they were available for Lehi's journey.

[David T]

He had assisted Josiah during the reform period.

Actually, he appears to have been prophesying his warnings during and very possibly against the reign of Josiah (see Jeremiah 1:2). He claims, quite unhappily, that the scriptures were altered during this time.( "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." Jeremiah 8:8 NASB). I don't think Jeremiah was a big fan of Josiah or his 'reform'.

[cjcampbell]

We really don't know how Laban got the brass plates in the first place. He might have seized them when Jeremiah was thrown into prison. Nephi does say that Jeremiah was in prison when they left Jerusalem. Perhaps Laban was attempting to keep the existence of the plates away from public knowledge. But Lehi would have known about them.

On the other hand, Laban probably thought also that he was a righteous man, obedient to the law of Moses, and that he was the rightful guardian of the plates now that Jeremiah was in prison. He may have been appointed by the elders of the Jews to take the records for safe-keeping.

[Joseph Antley]

Just because Laban was a wicked man doesn't mean he wasn't religious. He apparently met at least occasionally with "the elders of the church." Jeremiah was recognized as a prophet, and so Laban (or perhaps one of his servants) had some of Jeremiah's written and circulated prophecies inscribed onto the plates.

[Sevenbak]

We really don't know how Laban got the brass plates in the first place. He might have seized them when Jeremiah was thrown into prison. Nephi does say that Jeremiah was in prison when they left Jerusalem. Perhaps Laban was attempting to keep the existence of the plates away from public knowledge. But Lehi would have known about them.

On the other hand, Laban probably thought also that he was a righteous man, obedient to the law of Moses, and that he was the rightful guardian of the plates now that Jeremiah was in prison. He may have been appointed by the elders of the Jews to take the records for safe-keeping.

"And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records." 1 Nephi 5:16

[katherine the great]

Actually, he appears to have been prophesying his warnings during and very possibly against the reign of Josiah (see Jeremiah 1:2). He claims, quite unhappily, that the scriptures were altered during this time.( "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." Jeremiah 8:8 NASB). I don't think Jeremiah was a big fan of Josiah or his 'reform'.

I don't think so. You are taking this scripture out of context:

<<"Jeremiah:

5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.

7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.

8

[David T]

I don't think so. You are taking this scripture out of context:

the scriptures are crystal clear that God considered Josiah a righteous man.

Or at least the editor(s) of the Samuel-Kings Nationalist history did.

Other accounts seem to make this 'reform' look a lot more like the kind of 'Reform' Constantine did to Christianity. In the records of his official Church, he was regarded as 'Constantine the Great, Defender of the Faith'. But is that how we view him?

A look at the greater historical context, and additional records, leave me to think we don't have the full, or completely accurate, story in the current OT.

See this link for one paper concerning this: What Did Josiah Reform?

[katherine the great]

A look at the greater historical context, and additional records, leave me to think we don't have the full, or completely accurate, story in the current OT.

Hmmmm... Are you suggesting that Jeremiah would have been in favor of the worship of Asherah and the angels?

[David T]

Hmmmm... Are you suggesting that Jeremiah would have been in favor of the worship of Asherah and the angels?

Not their worship, but perhaps in favor of their presence (or what they represented) in the Temple and their theology.It was a throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater situation. It's also suggested that this was the time when El (the Most High God) and Yahweh (the Son of El, God of Israel and Chief of the Angels) became Officially merged into one being in the Israelite religion. Could you see how Jeremiah would be opposed to that?

And again...sound familiar?

[katherine the great]

Not their worship, but perhaps in favor of their presence (or what they represented) in the Temple and their theology.It was a throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater situation. It's also suggested that this was the time when El (the Most High God) and Yahweh (the Son of El, God of Israel and Chief of the Angels) became Officially merged into one being in the Israelite religion. Could you see how Jeremiah would be opposed to that?

And again...sound familiar?

Not really. The Heavenly Mother and "hosts of heaven" are not a part of our modern temple worship. I also find it absolutely impossible to believe that Jeremiah favored the sacrifice of children or the fertility worship that was well known to be practiced in that part of the world.

[David T]

I'm not talking about our modern temple, nor do I think Jeremiah was in favor of the apostate pagan worship of the era either.

What I do suggest is that there is evidence that the standardized OT records of the reform of Josiah may not be entirely accurate, complete, or un-biased.

[David T]

Turning back to the BoM connection:

it's possible Nephi was familiar with and attached positive things to Asherah symbolism.

One of the insults against Lehi was being called a 'visionary man'. It was a way of calling him a heretic: one of the key things attacked in the Deuteronomic reform was the belief that God, or angels, could be seen in vision.

[katherine the great]

What I do suggest is that there is evidence that the standardized OT records of the reform of Josiah may not be entirely accurate, complete, or un-biased.

I can agree with that. But I still don't see convincing evidence that Jeremiah was an opponent of Josiah and his reforms.

[cjcampbell]

"And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records." 1 Nephi 5:16

Thanks for reminding me of that. So Laban simply thought he was a righteous man fulfilling his religious duty. Laman and Lemuel apparently were the same -- they thought that God was wrong to judge Israel so harshly. I think there are some real lessons there for members of the Church. We see many of the same attitudes among even members of this board, some who might be the most ardent of apologists for the Church, but who nevertheless complain about the teachings of some of the apostles and prophets.