Sealed... for Time and for All Eternity

[staccato]

I didn't write that paragraph.

Then you shouldn't get your panties in a wad about it.

[staccato]

No one has said to disregard dead prophets. We after all study their teachings on gospel principles in RS and Priesthood. However, we are to follow the instructions of the living prophets, not what saints were instructed to do 100 years ago or 50 years ago.

And people wonder why it is so difficult to pin down what doctrine is in the mormon church. It is constantly changing and apparently completely dependent on current personnel and what they are deciding is doctrine at the time - allowing to accept and reject previous tenets at their whim. If what only matters is what the living prophet is saying, why have a bible? Why have any scripture at all? And how does following only the living prophet not qualify as cult leadership?

[thesometimesaint]

staccato:

Any organization that does not grow and change over time is doomed to die.

Here is a secular way look at it.

The US has a constitution. That is the basic rules under which we run this country.

The US also has a legislature that makes laws, and rules in the day to day operation of the country.

To demand that the US abandon its legislature would not only be against the constitution, but not meet today's needs.

[alter idem]

Men function in the role of kings and priests to God, not to their wives.

Matthew 6:24

No (wo)man can serve two masters: for either (s)he will hate the one, and love the other; or else (s)he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

In citing this scripture you suggest women can only serve one "master" and that master is her husband, not God? If I love God, I will despise my husband? I think you use this scripture incorrectly.

Heavenly Father created all his children, males and females. They all owe their allegience to God--women as well as men. Women are not subservient to men.

I may be eternally married, but my allegiance is to my Heavenly Father, first and foremost--this is how it should be for all of God's children, regardless of our sex. If some men think otherwise, I'd say they are too much influenced by opinions and beliefs other than the true Gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in our sacred scriptures.

[alter idem]

Please feel free to read your last paragraph again.

I believe many believing mormon would take issue with your stance that you are to disregard dead prophets.

I wrote that paragraph and I stand by it, but note that I did not say to sweepingly "disregard" dead prophets--you inferred that.

Believing FAITHFUL, active, actually sitting-in-the-pews-listening LDS members today know that we are to listen to the words of our living prophets and that they can and will trump dead prophets, if they are contradictory. This doesn't happen very often, but it does in the case of counsel regarding polygmay.

[alter idem]

And people wonder why it is so difficult to pin down what doctrine is in the mormon church. It is constantly changing and apparently completely dependent on current personnel and what they are deciding is doctrine at the time - allowing to accept and reject previous tenets at their whim. If what only matters is what the living prophet is saying, why have a bible? Why have any scripture at all? And how does following only the living prophet not qualify as cult leadership?

This sounds like a topic for a new thread.

[alter idem]

I think it would mean all members of the Church.

If I don't post any quotes, you write "CFR," and if I post them, then I'm "quote mining"? I thought that quote mining referred to quoting a few phrases out of context in order to give a misleading impression. How many quotes would you like me to provide in support of the idea of polygamy being essential to exaltation? How many would satisfy you? Fifty? One hundred? Two hundred? Do you want me to dump that many on you all at once?

I know you can provide plenty of quotes of former leaders stating that polygamy is essential for exaltation, but one thing you disregard is that these quotes are from leaders who were speaking to a people who had been commanded to live the principle of plural marriage. For them--those who'd been called to live it, if they disregarded this counsel, it sounds like they would be held accountable for it--and it just might effect their chances for exaltation--depending on the final judgment. But you CAN'T take those quotes from over 150 years ago, in a different time, place and people and try and make them relevant to us--because they are not. The living Prophet of the CofJCofLDS is the only man who holds the keys on earth and the only one to give authority for plural marriage--since 1906, every living Prophet has refused to authorize them (I disagree with those who claim some were authorized after this date, I don't believe it) and has forbidden the practice.

I'm certain that you can't find any quotes that claim polygamy is essential for exaltation AFTER the manifesto (except from the polygamist fundamentalists and their sympathizers who's beliefs are considered heretical)--only before. And I'm certain that I could find numerous quotes that condemn polygamy from our contemporary leaders.

[ttribe]

Then you shouldn't get your panties in a wad about it.

Uh huh...thanks for your civility and general level of respect.

[LeSellers]

And people wonder why it is so difficult to pin down what doctrine is in the mormon church. It is constantly changing and apparently completely dependent on current personnel and what they are deciding is doctrine at the time - allowing to accept and reject previous tenets at their whim. If what only matters is what the living prophet is saying, why have a bible? Why have any scripture at all? And how does following only the living prophet not qualify as cult leadership?

Once again we see the issue of concrete doctrine raise its ugly head.

I have said, along with many others, that the reason was Saints do not have a codified list of doctrine is that doctrine comes in milk and meat flavors (thanx and a tip of the hat to Paul for the metaphor). Although, as I see it, it is really far more complex than that. It is an ever expanding range of truths and requirements that does not change (just as the rules of basic arithmetic do not change as one advances into mathematics); they get more specialized.

As any of us grows in the Gospel, our understanding of the Kingdom of God also expands, and our need for more information and more liberating rules also grows.

What is right for me, a High Priest and somewhat experienced in the Gospel, would perhaps choke a new Elder of less than a third my age. My Jacquie's knowledge and application of the Gospel is not suited to the needs of a new bride.

Doctrine is not hard to pin down, what is hard to do is apply the correct principle at the correct time in the correct circumstance. People want someone else to do their research and to make their choices for them so they do not have to do the hard work themselves. But it is by that very work that people can grow, by that effort that they can become more godly (godlike).

Each of us is to be a prophet within our own stewardships. We must each seek the doctrine that applies to us in our lives. What is appropriate to the prophet may not be in my best interest right now. And he'd probably find my infantile knowledge of the Gospel too constraining to fit his needs.

Lehi

[Calm]

Believing FAITHFUL, active, actually sitting-in-the-pews-listening LDS members today know that we are to listen to the words of our living prophets and that they can and will trump dead prophets, if they are contradictory. This doesn't happen very often, but it does in the case of counsel regarding polygmay.

LDs believe the doctrine "line upon line" even applies to prophets after all.

[kamenraider]

Here's an interesting letter from President John Taylor to Sis. Malinda J. Merrill of Fremont, UT that answers some questions raised by this thread:

19 January, 1883

Dear Sister--

In regard to the question which you have proposed pertaining to plurality

of wives, you say, "According to my way of understanding the Revelation, I

thought it was sealing, but some say it is plurality." Permit me to say that

it is both; you will find that the revelation is on the Eternity of the

Marriage Covenant, including Plurality of Wives, and the first paragraph

reads, "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph, that inasmuch

as you have inquired of my hand, to know and understand wherein I, the Lord,

justified my servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; as also Moses, David and

Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having

many wives and concubines." [D & C. 132:1] The question that was asked was

evidently in relation to those people, and especially in relation to the

Plurality of wives. In the 4th verse it is said, "For behold, I reveal unto

you a New and an Everlasting Covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant,

then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant, and be permitted to

enter into my glory. For all who will have a blessing at my hands, shall abide

the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as

were instituted from before the foundation of the world. And as pertaining to

the New and Everlasting Covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my

glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof, must and shall abide the law,

or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God." [D & C 132:4-6]

You ask, "If a man and woman go to the house of the Lord and get their

endowments and are sealed for time and all eternity, and they two live

together quietly and peaceably and teach their children the principles of life

and salvation, and bring them up in the fear of the Lord, will they gain an

exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, with a continuation of their seed or not?

I have been sealed to my husband, and my patriarchal blessing says, `I shall

raise children in the Millennium,' and I would like to live so as to gain that

blessing. I hear men say that one cannot gain an exaltation and a continuation

of their seed in the eternal world unless they take more wives than one, and I

am anxious to understand it."

In fulfilling this, you have entered so far into the everlasting

covenant, which is so far acceptable before the Lord, but in regard to the

law, it is further said, (verse 32) "Go ye, therefore, and do the works of

Abraham; enter ye into my law. . . ." The question is, what is the law? The

34th verse says, "God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to

wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law, and from Hagar sprang

many people. this, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the

promises." In the 37th verse it is said, "Abraham received concubines, and

they bear him children, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness,

because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law, as Isaac also, and

Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded. . . ."

"David also received many wives and concubines, as also Solomon and Moses

my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of

creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things

which they received not of me." (38th verse)

You seem desirous to take part of the law and reject the other part, but

it is plainly stated as above quoted, that they were "to do the works of

Abraham, and that if ye enter not into my law, ye cannot receive the promise

of my Father which was made unto Abraham." It is further said, "God commanded

Abraham and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife, and that the reason why she

did it was because it was the law." It is evident, therefore, from the whole

of the above that other wives are included in this law as well as the one.

You further inquire: "What is the difference in a man having dead wives

sealed to him, than living women, so that he has one living wife; will they

gain as great an exaltation if they have dead women sealed to them as they

would if they had living women sealed to them?" This law pertains more

particularly to the living, and on this point I refer you to verse 52 wherein

it is said: "And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have

been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me;

and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed,

saith the Lord God." And in the 64th verse: "And again, verily, verily, I say

unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he

teaches unto her the law of my Priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then

shall she believe, and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith

the Lord your God, for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all

those who receive and abide in my law." This is the law of Sarah, "who

administered unto Abraham according to the law, when I commanded Abraham to

take Hagar to wife."

You seem to be desirous of having dead women sealed to your husband

instead of living ones, whereas the law pertaining to these matters does

not put things in that shape. We read that the Lord commanded and Sarah gave

Hagar to Abraham to wife, and it is for wives as well as husbands to perform

their part in relation to these matters as explicitly stated in verse 64

wherein it is said: "If he teaches unto her the law of my Priesthood as

pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or

she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God." Circumstances do not always

place it in the power of man to enter into this Covenant and these matters are

left with the Lord to adjust, but no man or woman has authority to point out

any other way than that which the Lord has appointed.

Respectfully, your Brother in the Gospel,

[signed] John Taylor