The Trial of Joseph Smith

[Sevenbak]

Mudcat is right, the word is bronze, but nobody is sure just what that means. One possibility is that it is a bow using special bronze-tipped arrows, another possibility is that it is inlaid with bronze, because although Ahab built an ivory tower, it wasn't contructed out of ivory.

I respectfully disagree.

You Honor, may I resubmit Job 20:24 again.

"He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through."

Is the writer meaning to show strength in the weapons? Of course. A wood bow tipped or inlaid with bronze weakens the entire meaning of the passage.

Brass, bronze, iron and steel all have their place in the text of the bible, as they should.

Now, if the prosecution wants to pursue a metallic line of questioning, they might have more fun with Ziff.

[volgadon]

Except that the word in Job is bronze, not steel. The writer is showing that these are weapons of war, weapons of death. If the swordsman doesn't kill him, the archer will.

[Sevenbak]

Except that the word in Job is bronze, not steel. The writer is showing that these are weapons of war, weapons of death. If the swordsman doesn't kill him, the archer will.

A bronze bow would be too brittle and would not work in a bow/spring capacity.

I give the King James translators more credit than that. Such an obvious error would be inexcusable for what they were trying to accomplish.

[volgadon]

Sevenbak, I'm reading it in Hebrew.

[Nofear]

Hands a parcel of some relevant information to the lawyers to use or not use (nothing conclusive here):

Various bible translations of Job 20:24

On the meaning of קשת נחושה by Aron Pinker

Bible and Book of Mormon Steel

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak, I'm reading it in Hebrew.

The King James translators were reading it in Hebrew as well, and they had older sources.

For them to make such a blatant mistake as that, given they knew full well what brass and bronze were, is hard to believe. But to do it twice in identical phrases in different books, (Psalms 18:34 and 2 Samuel 22:35) is a lot to swallow.

[Sevenbak]

Hands a parcel of some relevant information to the lawyers to use or not use (nothing conclusive here):

Various bible translations of Job 20:24

On the meaning of קשת נחושה by Aron Pinker

Bible and Book of Mormon Steel

None of your links opened for me.

[volgadon]

The King James translators were reading it in Hebrew as well, and they had older sources.

For them to make such a blatant mistake as that, given they knew full well what brass and bronze were, is hard to believe. But to do it twice in identical phrases in different books, (Psalms 18:34 and 2 Samuel 22:35) is a lot to swallow.

Older than the Keter Aram Soba?

The word is bronze and that is born out in academic sources as well.

[Orlovna]

Hear ye, hear ye!

The Court of Common Opinion is in session.

Joseph Smith has been charged by the prosecution with the crime of forgery and fraud in foisting upon a credulous world a record he claims is ancient, said record being The Book of Mormon.

This being a criminal charge, the prosecution must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Although the defense has no burden of proof in this trial, the defense may present any evidence it chooses at the close of the prosecution's case.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you will now give your strict attention to the opening statement of the prosecutor . . .

Actually, Joseph Smith, Junior, was charged with a crime, and for this reason he was held in a prison (jail), awaiting examination. He was charged with suppressing the "freedom of the press", by destroying a printing press called the Expositor: which had a right to exist.

So, maybe a "hypothetical trial", such as what you suggest, is not nearly as interesting as is "the real deal".

[ttribe]

Actually, Joseph Smith, Junior, was charged with a crime, and for this reason he was held in a prison (jail), awaiting examination. He was charged with suppressing the "freedom of the press", by destroying a printing press called the Expositor: which had a right to exist.

So, maybe a "hypothetical trial", such as what you suggest, is not nearly as interesting as is "the real deal".

Then start a different thread. You are derailing what's already been going on here...and it's a fairly interesting exercise, IMO.

[Nofear]

None of your links opened for me.

Fixed.

[AtticusFinch]

Your honor, it appears that since the Prosecution has been unable to prove the elements of the crime, they have decided to derail a failed case. If the Prosecution has nothing else left to offer, I move that the court dismiss all charges.

[Sevenbak]

Older than the Keter Aram Soba?The word is bronze and that is born out in academic sources as well.

Of course. The Keter Aram Sobah is what used to be called the Aleppo Codex. That only dates to the 10th century. That's still over 1000 years past the events we're discussing. Bronze makes no sense at all from a practical application. It doesn't bend and spring back.

Fixed.

Thanks.

[consiglieri]

So, maybe a "hypothetical trial", such as what you suggest, is not nearly as interesting as is "the real deal".

Yes, that would have been interesting, had those who put him in jail wanted to wait around for so meaningless an exercise as a trial.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Thanks for posting this on the 165th anniversary of Joseph Smith's murder.

[volgadon]

Of course. The Keter Aram Sobah is what used to be called the Aleppo Codex. That only dates to the 10th century. That's still over 1000 years past the events we're discussing. Bronze makes no sense at all from a practical application. It doesn't bend and spring back.

It is the oldest complete Hebrew Old Testament, incidentally, it was made in the town where our brach house is. What the KJV translators used was the Mikraot Gedolot, which was based on younger, inferior manuscripts.

Sevenbak, it says bronze, or as one of those links suggested, serpentine.

[Sevenbak]

It is the oldest complete Hebrew Old Testament, incidentally, it was made in the town where our brach house is. What the KJV translators used was the Mikraot Gedolot, which was based on younger, inferior manuscripts.

Sevenbak, it says bronze, or as one of those links suggested, serpentine.

Volgadon, the New Testament was translated from the Textus Receptus series of the Greek texts. The Old Testament was translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek Septuagint (LXX), except for 2 Esdras, which was translated from the Latin Vulgate. There were 47 translators who worked on the KJV.

If they said steel bows at least 3 times, 2 of which are identical phrasings, then they meant steel.

Bronze simply does not work in the context of a bow, or to show strength, which all the references do.

[volgadon]

The Masoretic Hebrew text's prime example is Ben Asher's, the Aleppo Codex. The manuscripts used for the Mikraot Gedolot, what the translators used, tended to be more recent. That being said, they all say bronze. Whatever the KJV translators may have meant, it is still a mistranslation.