structurecop Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Barking up the wrong tree. My comp was aware of it happening, but didn't cause it. The incident was a cherished memory for us both.And no, as I've already stated, it didn't have anything to do with my faith. It was heaven sent protection, but not faith invoked prayer or priesthood.Well, it's possible that such a thing did happen and the God did use his powers to move your companion out of harm's way. One of my companions was hit by a car, and another broke his ankle because his bicycle brakes stopped working, so I wonder if He was busy keeping other missionaries out of trouble at the time.
Deborah Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 When it comes to removing mountains from their place, I really didn't expect all the derision. Likewise. Moving a mountain can mean many things and I don't think it's too hard to imagine a natural phenomenon induced by a prophet bringing a mountain down. Sevenbak, and people wonder why we don't talk about our miraculous experiences! After all we are just mis-remembering or imagining something amazing. Having seen some pretty remarkable things myself I don't question such experiences, particularly when there are other witnesses. Oh, but that's just mass hallucination!
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 Well, it's possible that such a thing did happen and the God did use his powers to move your companion out of harm's way. One of my companions was hit by a car, and another broke his ankle because his bicycle brakes stopped working, so I wonder if He was busy keeping other missionaries out of trouble at the time.I've often pondered just that thing. While on my mission, I got word that my best friend growing up was killed along with 3 other Elders in a head on in Michigan, while on their way to a Zone Conference. It totally shut me down for a couple of days. We know missionaries are promised protection, and yet stuff like this happens. I can't tell you why, it's in God's hands.This is why, as I stated earlier, that I suspect it was a promise fulfilled to a specific blessing or promise he had been given.The Lord's ways are not our ways.
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 Sevenbak, and people wonder why we don't talk about our miraculous experiences! After all we are just mis-remembering or imagining something amazing. Having seen some pretty remarkable things myself I don't question such experiences, particularly when there are other witnesses. Oh, but that's just mass hallucination! Yeah, it must be that peyote I was smoking at the time. It's just another example of the power of God, which is and never was intended to build faith. That comes by the spirit, and is a much stronger foundation for truth. Having shared this, I would be surprised if any one who didn't have a testimony by the Holy Ghost gave it a second look at all.
Tarski Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 I'm avoiding redundancy and people not taking Christ at his word.OK I thought about it. Here is what I get.It is an inversion of common sense. Instead of "seeing is believing" we get "believing is seeing". This idea of sometimes seeing what we expect to see or want to see is not new.
Deborah Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 This idea of sometimes seeing what we expect to see or want to see is not new. Hmmm... You know that goes both ways. I suppose that explains why some like you don't see what is in front of their eyes. The don't expect or want to see it so they don't. Makes sense.
structurecop Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Hmmm... You know that goes both ways. I suppose that explains why some like you don't see what is in front of their eyes. The don't expect or want to see it so they don't. Makes sense.I recommend the book Why We Believe What We Believe by Andrew Newberg and Mark Robert Waldman. It is a very good treatment of why we hold a variety of perceptions based on neuroscience. It is also very sensitive in its approach to religious views so that it doesn't come off as simply dismissive. I think even "TBMs" could appreciate the science involved.
Nyal Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 The talk of mass hallucinations/miracles reminded me of an episode the Richard Dawkins mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_FatimaDid this happen? Did the these people hallucinate? Or did the lord god put a show on for the Catholic deluded. CogDis
Thunderfire Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Did some ancient man who was the brother Jared remove a mountain somewhere in one of the American continents by merely speaking or telling the mountain to be removed?In other words, do you take this literally??I do not know if the brother of Jared's account happened or not (I believe the account though). But in light of this discussion, let me share an over the top experience I witnessed on the Crow Indian Reservation last year.I was in the middle of the "rez", far from civilization, and I personally witnessed (3) three events which blew me away. The first day a man "spoke to the valley" and called forth for the flowers to come in two days. Two days later the valley was filled with the most beautiful purple with silver stem flowers. The next day they were gone. On the surface this didn't seem like much because they "could have already been there" (although they were about a foot tall and the stems were not visible prior to the day they appeared).But then that night a severe thunderstorm was bearing down upon us and the same man went out and "faced the storm". He held up his hand and prayed to God, and then "spoke to the storm". It LITERALLY PARTED IN TWO and went around us on both sides! We could see all around us a raging storm, yet above us we saw the stars. This might have been a fluke event, EXCEPT that the very next day a similar storm came and he repeated the same thing and this second storm split in two and went around us! Was this just a coincidence, that two storms would split in two and go around us? The last night there, a third storm came and no prayer was offered. We got hammered as this storm did not split and go around us. Again, were these three things mere coincidence, or was the mans faith truly revealed in how the earth responded? For many Native Americans, these types of events are expected. But they also live in a unique relationship with the earth that many white people cannot fathom or even consider. Just something to ponder because I have witnessed the earth respond to the prayers of the faithful...
Cold Steel Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 While on my mission, I got word that my best friend growing up was killed along with three other Elders in a head on in Michigan, while on their way to a Zone Conference. It totally shut me down for a couple of days. We know missionaries are promised protection, and yet stuff like this happens. I can't tell you why, it's in God's hands. It's might be a good idea to read some of the life-after-life experiences to gain a greater understanding about why these things happen. It's just that it's a great non sequitur to assume that because the Lord protects one, that he will do so to all. Perhaps during the recovery process the elder who broke his ankle was able to achieve something he wouldn't have otherwise. And for the elders killed in the car accident, quite often those things happen for a good reason. From what I've read, it's not unusual for people to be dispatched into our world for the specific task of bringing someone else back to fill a mission on the other side of the veil. One man, upon returning to this life, saw that others were preparing to receive a good friend of his. He gasped in surprise, but was told that it's not something to be dreaded in the least. Most people report that in dying there is no pain whatsoever; it's reentering the body that can be intense as you're re-connected to the nerves and the body, which is often damaged.
Thunderfire Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 If God is going to perform a miracle, why not just give the women and children the strength to climb? Why the overkill and the showing off?Let me ask this, if you were a pioneer and the women and children were having a hard time would you ask God to give them strength or would you ask him to just zap them to their destination star trek style? Why?Great question! In Acts (8:39-40) we see how after Philip witnessed to the Ethiopian Eunuch, the Lord transported him by the Spirit to Azotus.One thing I think we are missing here is this. Yes, the Lord didn't need to part the Red Sea. He could have "lifted" all of Israel over it by the Spirit, or he could have empowered them all walk on water. Yet he chose to part the waters and let them walk on dry land. The part I believe we are missing is how the "earth itself" wants to respond with God. How the wants to give itself in God's work and purpose. So can we really say it is God showing off? It may be that the mountain was showing off in how it wanted to respond to the request! I realize this line of thought is difficult for many to believe. But all we need to do is read about Enoch and his "love for the earth". It was more than just a rock to him, it was a friend which he felt kinship with. This may not have answered the question, but I offer this only for introspection and reflection.
a5m5a5d Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Are you saying God doesn't move stuff around defying gravity and physics?As one who has personally witnessed his companion and his bicycle moving up in the air and over to avoid an imminent collision with an automobile, I can most assuredly testify that he does do that very thing.And no, I wasn't praying for it to move, I was cringing thinking my companion was a dead man. Oh me of little faith...I believe your story Sevenbak. I wouldn't doubt it for a minute. Why woud you make such a thing up? I've heard more stories of missionaries with devine assistance in their calling. I've heard a story of men who were threatening to kill 2 missionaries, and when asked when they didn't they replied,"Because of the small army standing behind them." I've heard stories of 2 missionaries knocking on a door, where a man opened and told the 3 of them to get off his porch. I truly believe that angels walk with missionaries, and it is something I expect when I serve my mission.As for the brother of Jared, I do believe God moves material around defying gravity and physics. I believe laws of physics are God's laws. I do take the moving of a mountain literally, and believe it was physically picked up and moved. It seems there is a sifting of the saints who do not believe this. I think when the 2 Prophets are sent to Israel and are literally calling fire out of heaven, and single-handedly holding back a massive army of millions of men, perhaps then many will realize that faith can be very physical.
cinepro Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Why does this thread remind me of this scene? (Especially the last 10 seconds).
structurecop Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Why does this thread remind me of this scene? (Especially the last 10 seconds).For those of us who can't access YouTube, could you describe which scene you're referring to?
cinepro Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 For those of us who can't access YouTube, could you describe which scene you're referring to?It's the scene in "The Empire Strikes Back" where Luke attempts to raise the sunken X-wing (a really big space ship) from the swamp using the Force, but fails, saying "it's too big". Yoda (a much smaller and more feeble creature) then completes the task using the Force (and aided by a stirring John Williams score). A shocked Luke can only say "I don't believe it", to which Yoda responds "That is why you fail."The "move mountains" claim is saying that if we have sufficient faith, we can do anything. So what does it mean if we read a claim such as this and say "I don't believe it"?
structurecop Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 We must be of a similar mind... That's the scene I was referring to when I made this post:Hmm... a lot of faithless saints we have these days. I haven't seen anyone move so much as a river rock through their faith. Do you think that it is a good use of God's telekinetic powers, moving inanimate objects around Yoda style?
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 OK I thought about it. Here is what I get.It is an inversion of common sense. Instead of "seeing is believing" we get "believing is seeing". This idea of sometimes seeing what we expect to see or want to see is not new.Yes, you're right. Believing in the words of Christ is an inversion of common sense. Seeing is believing is the complete opposite of how we have been told by Christ to approach truth.This is why the Gospel is rejected by the world, and always has been. You're argument is as old as the hills, as is the answer.The talk of mass hallucinations/miracles reminded me of an episode the Richard Dawkins mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_FatimaDid this happen? Did the these people hallucinate? Or did the lord god put a show on for the Catholic deluded. CogDisExcept I nor my comp will never will make an idle of the lamppost at that intersection, and light candles to it.
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 I do not know if the brother of Jared's account happened or not (I believe the account though). But in light of this discussion, let me share an over the top experience I witnessed on the Crow Indian Reservation last year.I was in the middle of the "rez", far from civilization, and I personally witnessed (3) three events which blew me away. The first day a man "spoke to the valley" and called forth for the flowers to come in two days. Two days later the valley was filled with the most beautiful purple with silver stem flowers. The next day they were gone. On the surface this didn't seem like much because they "could have already been there" (although they were about a foot tall and the stems were not visible prior to the day they appeared).But then that night a severe thunderstorm was bearing down upon us and the same man went out and "faced the storm". He held up his hand and prayed to God, and then "spoke to the storm". It LITERALLY PARTED IN TWO and went around us on both sides! We could see all around us a raging storm, yet above us we saw the stars. This might have been a fluke event, EXCEPT that the very next day a similar storm came and he repeated the same thing and this second storm split in two and went around us! Was this just a coincidence, that two storms would split in two and go around us? The last night there, a third storm came and no prayer was offered. We got hammered as this storm did not split and go around us. Again, were these three things mere coincidence, or was the mans faith truly revealed in how the earth responded? For many Native Americans, these types of events are expected. But they also live in a unique relationship with the earth that many white people cannot fathom or even consider. Just something to ponder because I have witnessed the earth respond to the prayers of the faithful...Thanks for sharing that. Some of the humblest and faith filled members of the Church I know are among the Native Americans. Sure there are stereotypes of drinking and squaller, but the humility and faith of some is very powerful, and we can learn much from their example.PS, I have an adopted sister who is from the Sioux tribe.It's might be a good idea to read some of the life-after-life experiences to gain a greater understanding about why these things happen. It's just that it's a great non sequitur to assume that because the Lord protects one, that he will do so to all. Perhaps during the recovery process the elder who broke his ankle was able to achieve something he wouldn't have otherwise. And for the elders killed in the car accident, quite often those things happen for a good reason. From what I've read, it's not unusual for people to be dispatched into our world for the specific task of bringing someone else back to fill a mission on the other side of the veil. One man, upon returning to this life, saw that others were preparing to receive a good friend of his. He gasped in surprise, but was told that it's not something to be dreaded in the least. Most people report that in dying there is no pain whatsoever; it's reentering the body that can be intense as you're re-connected to the nerves and the body, which is often damaged.Thanks for that.I don't have a problem with it now, this was 20 years ago.
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 I believe your story Sevenbak. I wouldn't doubt it for a minute. Why woud you make such a thing up? I've heard more stories of missionaries with devine assistance in their calling. I've heard a story of men who were threatening to kill 2 missionaries, and when asked when they didn't they replied,"Because of the small army standing behind them." I've heard stories of 2 missionaries knocking on a door, where a man opened and told the 3 of them to get off his porch. I truly believe that angels walk with missionaries, and it is something I expect when I serve my mission.As for the brother of Jared, I do believe God moves material around defying gravity and physics. I believe laws of physics are God's laws. I do take the moving of a mountain literally, and believe it was physically picked up and moved. It seems there is a sifting of the saints who do not believe this. I think when the 2 Prophets are sent to Israel and are literally calling fire out of heaven, and single-handedly holding back a massive army of millions of men, perhaps then many will realize that faith can be very physical.Well said.Doctrine and Covenants 84:88...I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.
Tarski Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Is there anyone here that has the faith of a mustard seed?How about enough faith to move a grain of sand under controlled circumstances by merely commanding it to move (yoda style)?How about moving it one micron?How about everyone's faith put together? All gather in the lab and set up the instruments and put the grain of sand on the lab table and measure its position while everybody concentrates.
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 Why does this thread remind me of this scene? (Especially the last 10 seconds).Indeed!"When 7000 posts you have made, talk like cinepro you will."
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2009 Author Posted April 21, 2009 Is there anyone here that has the faith of a mustard seed?How about enough faith to move a grain of sand under controlled circumstances by merely commanding it to move (yoda style)?How about moving it one micron?How about everyone's faith put together? All gather in the lab and set up the instruments and put the grain of sand on the lab table and measure its position while everybody concentrates.Here is a version of the NT that I think you can really get behind this time. Tell me if it lives down to your standards.Matthew 21:21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, a laboratory, and doubt not, get together scientifically, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, (a little bit) but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, grain of sand, for that's all we think we can do, Be thou removed, with mind powers or telekinesis, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done, we think.Oh, and btw, since you are doubting the words of Christ, do you similarly doubt the words of Paul?1 Corinthians 13:2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Nevo Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 I think the scene in Ether 12:30 is quite obviously influenced by Matthew 17:20 (which conflates sayings from Mark and Q). Therefore, I'm disinclined to think that it refers to a historical event â?? even if the brother of Jared was, in fact, a historical figure. (So was Gregory Thaumaturgus, but I don't believe he moved a mountain either.) I tend to view miracles more prosaically. For example, I regard the building of the Salt Lake Temple as an instance of "faith moving mountains."As a side note, Luke 17:6 â?? which doesn't mention mountains at all â?? probably comes closest to what Jesus actually said: "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you." (Of course, this is no less impossible than moving a mountain, so the substitution of "mountain" for "sycamine tree" in Mk 11:29 and Mt 17:20 is still faithful to the spirit of Jesus' saying.)
Tarski Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Oh, and btw, since you are doubting the words of Christ, do you similarly doubt the words of Paul?I doubt all of the miracles in the Bible and if I am to interpret the miraculous sounding statements of Jesus and Paul literally then I do doubt them very much.My beliefs are, to the best of my ablitiy and to the extent I have time to check things, based on my best application of mundane common sense skepticism and science.It is a very powerful and sucessful approach for me. It has saved me time, money and possibly my health.
Thunderfire Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Is there anyone here that has the faith of a mustard seed?How about enough faith to move a grain of sand under controlled circumstances by merely commanding it to move (yoda style)?How about moving it one micron?If we can, let's find a way to express this example with a purpose which is needed besides creating the faith in believing it is possible. Now if you were a single celled organism, then this grain of sand would be a mountain! But for us, I cannot see any benefit to doing this except proving it is possible.Now I would say that all these things are done under controlled circumstances, Gods control! Where I'm stuggling here is that it is not for me to "prove" that this is possible. I can only convey what has been seen and leave it at that. I hope this makes sense. I respect the right not to believe and I will not try forcing someone to believe the seemingly impossible.
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