Mt. Zerin moved by the Brother of Jared

[Sevenbak]

I doubt all of the miracles in the Bible and if I am to interpret the miraculous sounding statements of Jesus and Paul literally then I do doubt them very much.

My beliefs are, to the best of my ablitiy and to the extent I have time to check things, based on my best application of mundane common sense skepticism and science.

It is a very powerful and sucessful approach for me. It has saved me time, money and possibly my health.

Well, at least I understand where you are coming from a bit more.

[Sevenbak]

I think the scene in Ether 12:30 is quite obviously influenced by Matthew 17:20 (which conflates sayings from Mark and Q). Therefore, I'm disinclined to think that it refers to a historical event â?? even if the brother of Jared was, in fact, a historical figure. (So was Gregory Thaumaturgus, but I don't believe he moved a mountain either.) I tend to view miracles more prosaically. For example, I regard the building of the Salt Lake Temple as an instance of "faith moving mountains."

As a side note, Luke 17:6 â?? which doesn't mention mountains at all â?? probably comes closest to what Jesus actually said: "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."

(Of course, this is no less impossible than moving a mountain, so the substitution of "mountain" for "sycamine tree" in Mk 11:29 and Mt 17:20 is still faithful to the spirit of Jesus' saying.)

I suppose the only good answer I can give you is this.

Moroni 7:

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of \godliness.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me.

[Tarski]

If we can, let's find a way to express this example with a purpose which is needed besides creating the faith in believing it is possible. Now if you were a single celled organism, then this grain of sand would be a mountain! But for us, I cannot see any benefit to doing this except proving it is possible.

Why did Jesus change water to wine and why did he walk on water?

[Sevenbak]

Why did Jesus change water to wine and why did he walk on water?

Compared to him creating the Universe and this earth, not so big a deal.

But I'm confused. I thought you discounted all the biblical miracles?

[Tarski]

Compared to him creating the Universe and this earth, not so big a deal.

But I'm confused. I thought you discounted all the biblical miracles?

The point is that someone implied that the reason faithful people can't move a grain of sand is that there is no purpose but to prove that the power exists.

But wasn't Jesus likewise proving his power?

[Sevenbak]

The point is that someone implied that the reason faithful people can't move a grain of sand is that there is no purpose but to prove that the power exists.

But wasn't Jesus likewise proving his power?

I think that there are certainly times when the power of God is made manifest for substantive reasons, but they are few. Miracles come after faith, not the other way around. Also, it's Christ doing it to reveal his power, usually he commands his people to do such things in sacred silence.

As is stated many times in the scriptures, if the one performing the miracle is of the same mind as Christ, it will be done as the Lord wants, not as man wants.

[Thunderfire]

Why did Jesus change water to wine and why did he walk on water?

The first one is easy, the second more difficult in finding the purpose.

At the wedding in Cana, Mary asked Jesus to do it. At first he said it wasn't his time yet, but he did it out of love for his mother. We can also look at the significance in offering the "new wine", but I think this was mainly done because he loved his mother and did as she asked.

Regarding the walking on water. The purpose could have been for many reasons which we simply do not know. But we can see from the text that one of the greatest lessons learned was with Peter and how Jesus was teaching him about faith.

But again, please forgive me if it appears that I am trying to "convince" you that these things are possible. I cannot do that. I can only present a choice to consider and one we can discuss!

[Sevenbak]

The first one is easy, the second more difficult in finding the purpose.

At the wedding in Cana, Mary asked Jesus to do it. At first he said it wasn't his time yet, but he did it out of love for his mother. We can also look at the significance in offering the "new wine", but I think this was mainly done because he loved his mother and did as she asked.

Regarding the walking on water. The purpose could have been for many reasons which we simply do not know. But we can see from the text that one of the greatest lessons learned was with Peter and how Jesus was teaching him about faith.

But again, please forgive me if it appears that I am trying to "convince" you that these things are possible. I cannot do that. I can only present a choice to consider and one we can discuss!

Well said. And in both cases, he was with close associates who already believed and had faith, at least to some degree.

In the case of him walking on the Sea of Galilee, it was his closes apostles whom he showed forth that great miracle, and then, as you said, it was to build ever greater faith.

[a5m5a5d]

The point is that someone implied that the reason faithful people can't move a grain of sand is that there is no purpose but to prove that the power exists.

But wasn't Jesus likewise proving his power?

Reminds me of this scripture..

1 Nephi 17:53 "And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: Stretch forth thine hand again unto thy brethren and they shall not wither before thee, but I will shock them, saith the Lord, and this will I do, that they may know that I am the Lord their God."

Sometimes only the power of God will be strong enough of a witness for some, as we see in this scripture..

1 Nephi 18:20 "And there was nothing save it were the power of God, which treathened them with destruction, could soften their hearts; wherefore, when they saw that they were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea they repented of the thing which they had done, insomuch that they loosed me."

[volgadon]

The first one is easy, the second more difficult in finding the purpose.

At the wedding in Cana, Mary asked Jesus to do it. At first he said it wasn't his time yet, but he did it out of love for his mother. We can also look at the significance in offering the "new wine", but I think this was mainly done because he loved his mother and did as she asked.

Regarding the walking on water. The purpose could have been for many reasons which we simply do not know. But we can see from the text that one of the greatest lessons learned was with Peter and how Jesus was teaching him about faith.

But again, please forgive me if it appears that I am trying to "convince" you that these things are possible. I cannot do that. I can only present a choice to consider and one we can discuss!

New wine is actually something else, but I assume you didn't mean that. I concur with you that changed the water into wine as a favour for his mother.

Were I to lean back and look out the window, I would see the Sea of Galilee. For someone who lives there, Peter's fears were entirely reasonable. The lake is shaped somewhat like a funnel. I don't want to bandy about the term bottomless, because I'm no professional, but it is very deep indeed towards the middle. As one steps out from the shore, there is a step and a sudden drop, with very strong undercurrents which will suck you down. There are at least ten deaths by drowning every year because of that. During the wintertime strong winds rush down onto the lake because of the sudden drop from the hills. Peter grew up there, the lake was his life, he knew what it was capable of. He had every reason to be afraid, but the Lord wanted to teach him the power of faith in overcoming the dangers in our lives.