Premortal Human Soul and Human Deification

[David Bokovoy]

Stumbled across this interesting Rabbinic comment identifying the creation of the human soul in heaven and the deification of human beings:

"R. Simai used to say, 'Both the soul and body of creatures created from heaven are from heaven. Both the soul and body of creatures created from earth are from earth, except for man, whose soul is from heaven and body is from earth. Therefore if a man fulfills Torah and the desire of his Father in heaven he is like the heavenly creatures as it says, 'I said 'You are gods and sons of the most high all of you' (Ps. 82:6)." Sifre Devarim 306

Thought some here might enjoy.

[Sargon]

Very cool David.

The Targum "translation" of Psalm 82 significantly doctors the psalm so that all suggestions of "polytheism" are tossed out. Is this Rabbinic commentary you provide from a different place and time than the Targum?

[David Bokovoy]

Very cool David.

The Targum "translation" of Psalm 82 significantly doctors the psalm so that all suggestions of "polytheism" are tossed out. Is this Rabbinic commentary you provide from a different place and time than the Targum?

Yep. That's a great question/observation. I'm actually getting ready to put up a podcast today on the subject. The Aramaic revision of Psalm 82, which places God dwelling only with truthful judges, represents the intermediate stage in the development of this Rabbinic tradition.

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[lostindc]

Yep. That's a great question/observation. I'm actually getting ready to put up a podcast today on the subject. The Aramaic revision of Psalm 82, which places God dwelling only with truthful judges, represents the intermediate stage in the development of this Rabbinic tradition.

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David,

Just so myself and others can keep informed, are we able to subscribe to your podcast or do we directly download the audio file from your site?

Thanks

[mfbukowski]

Yep. That's a great question/observation. I'm actually getting ready to put up a podcast today on the subject. The Aramaic revision of Psalm 82, which places God dwelling only with truthful judges, represents the intermediate stage in the development of this Rabbinic tradition.

best

Dang. This is just plain not fair. How are we supposed to get any work done with all this great stuff coming out? Guess I have to retire "all the way" now, and it's all your fault!

[mfbukowski]

Stumbled across this interesting Rabbinic comment identifying the creation of the human soul in heaven and the deification of human beings:

"R. Simai used to say, 'Both the soul and body of creatures created from heaven are from heaven. Both the soul and body of creatures created from earth are from earth, except for man, whose soul is from heaven and body is from earth. Therefore if a man fulfills Torah and the desire of his Father in heaven he is like the heavenly creatures as it says, 'I said 'You are gods and sons of the most high all of you' (Ps. 82:6)." Sifre Devarim 306

Thought some here might enjoy.

Fascinating stuff. Any clue about what creatures fit the description "soul and body created from heaven"? Would that be angels and the elohim? So they have "spiritual bodies" in some sense? And I presume the earthly creatures would be animals right?

[David Bokovoy]

David,

Just so myself and others can keep informed, are we able to subscribe to your podcast or do we directly download the audio file from your site?

Thanks

Thanks for the interest. I'm afraid however, that I'm no Kerry Shirts. I really have no idea what I'm doing. In fact, if not for my friend Captn' Jack's direct assistance I wouldn't have a site to work with. I believe that you should be able to simply click on the underlined text and then your MP3 player will do the rest. It comes up via Quicktime on my Mac. I haven't tried to download the discussion, but I would assume you should be able to.

[David Bokovoy]

Fascinating stuff. Any clue about what creatures fit the description "soul and body created from heaven"? Would that be angels and the elohim? So they have "spiritual bodies" in some sense? And I presume the earthly creatures would be animals right?

Indeed, the Rabbinic text distinguishes between heavenly and earthly beings, i.e. angels/God vs. animals/humanity. However, humans are understood as possessing a soul created from heaven with a potential of becoming 'elohim through Torah study.

[e=mc2]

Thanks for the interest. I'm afraid however, that I'm no Kerry Shirts.

There can only be One! Hee, hee........ However, thine mind oh Bokovoy stretchs far beyond mine own puny attempts. I admire you for doing this, and you will find that it just gets more enjoyable with age, er, time.....yeah, that's it.....LOL! I'm looking VERY forward to the podcasts. A hint. Most don't like podcasts over 30 minutes long. I pushed the envelope to about 40-45 minutes and got away with it, sort of. I did a few 2 hour podcasts, and no one was intersted in listening that long. So try to keep it in a fram of half an hour and you shall have multitudinously more thousands than I ever will.

[David Bokovoy]

There can only be One! Hee, hee........ However, thine mind oh Bokovoy stretchs far beyond mine own puny attempts. I admire you for doing this, and you will find that it just gets more enjoyable with age, er, time.....yeah, that's it.....LOL! I'm looking VERY forward to the podcasts. A hint. Most don't like podcasts over 30 minutes long. I pushed the envelope to about 40-45 minutes and got away with it, sort of. I did a few 2 hour podcasts, and no one was intersted in listening that long. So try to keep it in a fram of half an hour and you shall have multitudinously more thousands than I ever will.

Good advice, my Brother. I'm trying to keep each discussion down to about 10 minutes. I've put up my first one on Psalm 82 and the elohim/judges interpretation.

best

[William the Conqueror]

Good advice, my Brother. I'm trying to keep each discussion down to about 10 minutes. I've put up my first one on Psalm 82 and the elohim/judges interpretation.

best

Well now David and hello again! Yes David there are other Brandeis graduates that possibly are more noted than you such as Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Eye tear the tattered ensign down, long has it waved on high, an' many an eye has danced to see that banner in the sky...."

But I digress David, on another thread someone brought up Michael Heiser's view on Psalms 82 as him stating that Yahweh was species unique to the other alleged divine beings in Psalms 82. That is Michael Heiser believes Yahweh, or Elohim, take your pick (one God-three persons -not personages ala Joseph Smith) created these divine beings and was warning them that he could end their existance which would normally be eternal. I find this much more palatable than the LDS view that Yahweh is NOT species unique to the other divine beings.

[David Bokovoy]

Well now David and hello again! Yes David there are other Brandeis graduates that possibly are more noted than you such as Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Eye tear the tattered ensign down, long has it waved on high, an' many an eye has danced to see that banner in the sky...."

Hello William, my friend,

There are indeed many, many Brandeis graduates much more noteworthy than me including, Angela Yvonne Davis.

But I digress David, on another thread someone brought up Michael Heiser's view on Psalms 82 as him stating that Yahweh was species unique to the other alleged divine beings in Psalms 82. That is Michael Heiser believes Yahweh, or Elohim, take your pick (one God-three persons -not personages ala Joseph Smith) created these divine beings and was warning them that he could end their existance which would normally be eternal. I find this much more palatable than the LDS view that Yahweh is NOT species unique to the other divine beings.

Yes, and I really think highly of Mike. I sat next him to during a very problematic SBL presentation of the Divine Council and enjoyed his company. In my estimation, Mike is a great Gentleman, and a fantastic scholar. If I remember correctly, I actually petitioned Dan to publish his lecture in the FARMS Review (not that he needed any convincing).

I really am pleased that you've found a theological view concerning deity that you find more palatable than the LDS perspective, still, the idea that Yahweh is a god belonging to a separate divine species cannot be supported by the biblical texts or the cognate historical/cultural literature.

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[mfbukowski]

There are indeed many, many Brandeis graduates much more noteworthy than me including, Angela Yvonne Davis.

This is absolutely hilarious.

I was one of her students in the UCLA philosophy department in 1969 in my undergrad radical atheist days. She taught dialectical materialism. I was also a member of the "philosophy action committee" -- we wanted a "more relevant" program and somehow we got the faculty to pretend to take our recommendations on hiring. We found this "perfect" Phd candidate at UCSD - Black, woman, and communist - just what we wanted, so we recommended her. The faculty had probably leaked her name to us anyway. I haven't heard that name in probably 25 years! She was one of the nicest, kindest approachable profs I ever had.

As far as the radicalism, I have been in complete remission for years now!

Hope I didn't kill the thread!

[maklelan]

Stumbled across this interesting Rabbinic comment identifying the creation of the human soul in heaven and the deification of human beings:

"R. Simai used to say, 'Both the soul and body of creatures created from heaven are from heaven. Both the soul and body of creatures created from earth are from earth, except for man, whose soul is from heaven and body is from earth. Therefore if a man fulfills Torah and the desire of his Father in heaven he is like the heavenly creatures as it says, 'I said 'You are gods and sons of the most high all of you' (Ps. 82:6)." Sifre Devarim 306

Thought some here might enjoy.

Something to add from Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba BhM 3:32, quoted in Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit:Wayne State University Press, 1979), 251:

The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future call all of the pious by their names, and give them a cup of elixir of life in their hands so that they should live and endure forever. . . . And the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future reveal to all the pious in the World to Come the Ineffable Name with which new heavens and a new earth can be created, so that all of them should be able to create new worlds. . . . The Holy One, blessed be He, will give every pious three hundred and forty worlds in inheritance in the World to Come.

[Bill Hamblin]

Something to add from Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba BhM 3:32, quoted in Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit:Wayne State University Press, 1979), 251:

Two great quotes. Take that Radical Monotheistic Evangelicals! Ha!

[Daniel Peterson]

Good stuff!

We're so right.

Our critics are soooooo wrong.

Life is good.

[John D the First]

Here is a similar observation from a contemporary Rabbinical commentator on the Talmud:

"The Talmud teaches the pre-existance of souls. 'In the seventh heaven, Araboth, are stored the spirits and souls which have still to be created' (Chag. 12b), i.e. the unborn souls which have still to be united with bodies. There was a common belief that the Messianic era will not dawn until all these unborn souls have had their term of existance on earth" (78). Direct quote from Everyman's Talmud, Abraham Cohen.

[David Bokovoy]

Here is a similar observation from a contemporary Rabbinical commentator on the Talmud:

Very nice.

Just thought I would through in a plug for Terryl Givens new book that deals with this topic. The book is outstanding! Terryl has a brilliant mind and is a master wordsmith. You guys are really going to enjoy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Pre-Mortal-Exi...9817&sr=8-1

[maklelan]

Another good text that deals with premortal existence is Rabbi Nissim Wernick's BYU dissertation on the Book of Abraham in light of extra-canonical texts. I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but a summary is found here, and the text here.

[USU78]

I came across this:

"'Behold I even I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth,'" said Rabbi Jehuda. "These words have reference to the waters of strife (Meribah), when the children of Israel murmured against the Lord and caused his holiness to appear amongst them. But was this act of insubordination and murmuring against God the only occurrence in the history of the children of Israel, that scripture should thus characterize it? The fact is, it is recorded as the occasion Israel afforded to the executors of divine justice of overcoming and afflicting them. For there are waters sweet and bitter, waters clear and turbid, waters of peace and waters of strife, to which scripture alludes as waters of Meribah where the children of Israel strove with the Lord: that is, they attracted to themselves the impure, unclean spirit that defiled them (vayiqqadesh bam) (Num. xx. 13).

In objecting against this exposition, Rabbi Hezekiah said: "If your interpretation was correct, the word vayiqadshou (they were deified) would have been used by scripture. The true meaning of the words is I think as follows: 'He whom the children of Israel should have worshipped and adored became degraded by them, if I may so express it. They became so obdurate and wilfully irrational both in mind and heart that the sense of the Divine presence with them became lost and extinguished, as doth the light of the moon at its fall. Therefore as the word vayiqadesh used by scripture should not be translated in its best sense of being sanctified; so the words, 'Behold I even I do bring a flood of waters,' should be understood as meaning, 'I will send unto them the impure and destroying angel by whom they have allowed themselves to become defiled.'"

here: http://sacred-texts.com/jud/zdm/zdm062.htm

Question for the Hebrew cognoscenti: Should the 3rd person past tense vayiqadshou be understood as we understand deified? Is there a clue here?

[maklelan]

I came across this:

here: http://sacred-texts.com/jud/zdm/zdm062.htm

Question for the Hebrew cognoscenti: Should the 3rd person past tense vayiqadshou be understood as we understand deified? Is there a clue here?

I prefer calling this the preterite, as "past tense" can be misleading. It's Niphal, which is the passive, and it can be causitive, reflexive, denominative, and a number of other things. HALOT lists the Niphal definitions as "to show oneself as holy," and "to be treated as holy." The Piel or the Pual (factitive) is generally used for sanctification or making something holy. That would be vayqadshu.

[e=mc2]

I prefer calling this the preterite, as "past tense" can be misleading. It's Niphal, which is the passive, and it can be causitive, reflexive, denominative, and a number of other things. HALOT lists the Niphal definitions as "to show oneself as holy," and "to be treated as holy." The Piel or the Pual (factitive) is generally used for sanctification or making something holy. That would be vayqadshu.

Heh..... I just studied about the Preterite today....... BY Chisholm in his really nifty grammar book From Exegesis to Exposition. Now that I have read this, what you say actually is understandable to me. Imagine that, Hebrew may very well be seeping into this dumb brain of mine after all.....woo hoo!

[USU78]

I prefer calling this the preterite, as "past tense" can be misleading. It's Niphal, which is the passive, and it can be causitive, reflexive, denominative, and a number of other things. HALOT lists the Niphal definitions as "to show oneself as holy," and "to be treated as holy." The Piel or the Pual (factitive) is generally used for sanctification or making something holy. That would be vayqadshu.

Given the numerological and other connections made by the Rabbis over the centuries in other contexts, it would not surprise me that so non-tenuous a connection as a different conjugation of the same verb could well be the basis for a fully justifiable belief in deification based upon the Tanakh.

This especially given the Psalter provisions you've and others've brought up on the subject.

[livy111us]

Yep. That's a great question/observation. I'm actually getting ready to put up a podcast today on the subject. The Aramaic revision of Psalm 82, which places God dwelling only with truthful judges, represents the intermediate stage in the development of this Rabbinic tradition.

best

Where are you going to put up your podcast at? I didn't see a link anywhere.