Is it possible to have a face-to-face with Jesus, JS, or God?

[Jeff K.]

Except that God doesn't exist as an anthopormophic projection to the mystic, because the mystic and God are one, which mediation helps to bring to awareness.

Whether the mystic sees god in an antrhopmorphic projection or a still small voice or a large booming one or even a feeling is irrelevant to the issue since all three occur among Mormons.

When was the last time someone stood at sacrament and prayed without saying a word?

I have seen many prayers that are not and cannot be articulated. I don't see a problem with that. There are visions that cannot be described either.

Some prayers are contemplative for the individual, but they still involve focused contemplation, and all public LDS prayers are either of gratitude and/or supplication....ALWAYS, because they have a listening audience.

Proper prayer is not always focused. When asking for Gods will we are not "focusing" we are open and allowing ourselves to be open to revelation and greater light and understanding.You want to focus on public prayer? You mean when one person seeks the inspiration to speak for the group and searches to understand the best way to do so as he prepares for prayer? Or do you prefer to understand that public prayer the type of prayer least used by saints who pray always everyday and often without speaking. As they seek to be closer to God and search for enlightenment?Public prayer is like public speaking. Rarely done by the individual, but noticed most by others.

The language is different, because you are looking for something "out there", a God outside of yourself. The mystic seeks no such thing.

Not sure where you get that from. Mystics seek Nirvana, when they are free of anger, and a perfect peace of mind exists, where clarity and lucidity are without doubt and all things are understood. I can think of nothing that brings us closer to the understanding of the will and mind of God. It seems your only quibble is perhaps the anthropomorphic belief of Mormons that God has the form of man. But that is irrelevant the mystic which seeks any enlightenment whether in man form or not.

To quote Jeff K. "God does not want to override our will with his own." I just want to suggest that maybe, just maybe, you don't have as much free will as you imagine yourself to have. This, by the way, goes for everybody, myself included.

Or perhaps you have more than you know. Free will the power to choose is a basic tenet in our religion. Perhaps an objective tenet beyond anything we can imagine.

[Avatar4321]

Is there any reason something would be impossible for God?

[nishka]

Nope. It looks like he even put a stop to this thread.

[Tchild2]

Whether the mystic sees god in an antrhopmorphic projection or a still small voice or a large booming one or even a feeling is irrelevant to the issue since all three occur among Mormons.

You may be right, but in Mormon Doctrine, God is a glorified personage of "flesh and bones", and God as something other than a glorified personage is a non-reality. "The still small voice", as I opined, is one of the few last remnants of J.S's. more mystical views of diety that still exist in Mormonism. It may be that the "still small voice" itself negates the need for religion altogether. If religion helps you find it, then great, but it is the person that owns it, not religion, nor its priesthoods, rites or rituals. You or the individual member may recognize this, but institutional religion will not grant this personal freedom. Hence, my criticisms of Mormonism.

It seems your only quibble is perhaps the anthropomorphic belief of Mormons that God has the form of man. But that is irrelevant the mystic which seeks any enlightenment whether in man form or not.

The main difference is that religion seeks answers outside of the individual and places the source as the rituals, rites and doctrines of religions. They don't exist there. The more literal the religion, the more removed from the inner they have become. They retain a vestige of the symbol, but have lost the power of finding it because the focus becomes on the outside and the external.

Or perhaps you have more than you know. Free will the power to choose is a basic tenet in our religion. Perhaps an objective tenet beyond anything we can imagine.

I will have to digest this more to be able to respond.

Not a bad post Jeff K.

[kamenraider]

An example of this:

'The Kingdom of God is within you' - Luke 17:21

...

Couldn't this be translated "The Kingdom of God is among you"?

[Jeff K.]

You may be right, but in Mormon Doctrine, God is a glorified personage of "flesh and bones", and God as something other than a glorified personage is a non-reality. "The still small voice", as I opined, is one of the few last remnants of J.S's. more mystical views of diety that still exist in Mormonism. It may be that the "still small voice" itself negates the need for religion altogether. If religion helps you find it, then great, but it is the person that owns it, not religion, nor its priesthoods, rites or rituals. You or the individual member may recognize this, but institutional religion will not grant this personal freedom. Hence, my criticisms of Mormonism.

Not a bad post Jeff K.

Again, this is irrelevant. Nor is the still small voice a "remenant". In fact it is a major sign post for Mormons and used on a continuing basis in general conferences, stake conferences and other discussion. In effect the dichotomy you create is irrelevant to the actuality that exists. The person through agency is the only one who can access that still small voice. The Mormon church teaches that priesthood is irrelevant to hearing it. Were it not so Joseph Smith could not have sought communion with God in the grove. Not only does the church as an institution allow this freedom, it requires it of each individual in prayer and contemplation.

It appears your criticism of Mormonism are without cause.

The main difference is that religion seeks answers outside of the individual and places the source as the rituals, rites and doctrines of religions. They don't exist there. The more literal the religion, the more removed from the inner they have become. They retain a vestige of the symbol, but have lost the power of finding it because the focus becomes on the outside and the external.

I will have to digest this more to be able to respond.

No. Joseph Smith could not have sought the answers within rituals. The answers almsot always came through prayer and contemplation with rituals revealed being symbolic in order to help mankind wrap its limited knowledge around a greater truth. Buddhist philosophy cannot explain Nirvana for example, but uses symbolic language in order to create an understanding as to what the correct direction is. No one can externally put you in the celestial kingdom, no outside ritual will put you there unless you are already willing to go there internally. It is the basic tenet of the Mormon church.

So the theory that a more literal religion removes the inner individual is falsified by the Mormon church since that church with its external authority can do nothing unless the internal individual chooses to enter into the kingdom of God.

[Tchild2]

Again, this is irrelevant. Nor is the still small voice a "remenant". In fact it is a major sign post for Mormons and used on a continuing basis in general conferences, stake conferences and other discussion. In effect the dichotomy you create is irrelevant to the actuality that exists. The person through agency is the only one who can access that still small voice. The Mormon church teaches that priesthood is irrelevant to hearing it. Were it not so Joseph Smith could not have sought communion with God in the grove. Not only does the church as an institution allow this freedom, it requires it of each individual in prayer and contemplation.

The "still small voice" is independant of Mormonism, its prophets or priesthoods. It is a borrowed concept used by religions. I agree that the priesthood is irrelevant to accessing what we have within, and as a critic of organized religion, that is what I assert.

It appears your criticism of Mormonism are without cause.

Mormonism claims exclusivity which it does not have. That is what I critique.

No. Joseph Smith could not have sought the answers within rituals. The answers almsot always came through prayer and contemplation with rituals revealed being symbolic in order to help mankind wrap its limited knowledge around a greater truth. Buddhist philosophy cannot explain Nirvana for example, but uses symbolic language in order to create an understanding as to what the correct direction is. No one can externally put you in the celestial kingdom, no outside ritual will put you there unless you are already willing to go there internally. It is the basic tenet of the Mormon church.

The tenets of Mormonism are of external truths, external dieties (God, Jesus, Holy Ghost), external power (priesthood) and external rituals to arrive at some destination of future salvation (baptism, laying on of hands, priesthood ordination, temple covenants, etc etc).

So the theory that a more literal religion removes the inner individual is falsified by the Mormon church since that church with its external authority can do nothing unless the internal individual chooses to enter into the kingdom of God.

The church places itself as the agent between the individual and God as the mediator of salvation. The LDS church is not that agent. It believes that its baptism, its laying on of hands and its priesthood is power, but they are symbols of what we have within and there is no power in the external rituals except what we cede to that perceived belief.

Hope that clarifies.

[nishka]

Right on Jeff. You laid out some perspectives I've never heard coming from the mouth of a Mormon. I appreciated that. However, your gift appears to be an ability to reshape and reconfigure concepts and fashion them to appear in alignment with Mormon teachings.

Generally speaking, I see all religions operate in this manner; making God conform to their ideas of what God is. Truth cannot be contained, nor can it exist solely within the walls of any church, regardless of how elaborate the church is decorated with gold, rituals, symbols, and costumes.

Also, the language of mystics and Mormons differ in at least one important aspect. Mystics speak from experience. Mormons speak from faith and belief. Jesus was a mystic. The language of Jesus and Mormons is fundamentally different in meaning.

[Jeff K.]

The "still small voice" is independant of Mormonism, its prophets or priesthoods. It is a borrowed concept used by religions. I agree that the priesthood is irrelevant to accessing what we have within, and as a critic of organized religion, that is what I assert.

Of course the still small voice is independent of Mormonism it is independent of everything including priesthoods. As I have already asserted. It belongs to whomever seeks to know the will of the Lord. Organized religion is irrelevant of it. For this reason it plays such a strong part in Mormonism because it is directly tied to individual innate agency in seeking that. I fail to see your point. Mormonism makes it a very strong tenet in the foundation of who we are.

Mormonism claims exclusivity which it does not have. That is what I critique.

Exclusivity always exists. Who we are as individuals makes us automatically exclusive to others. Mormonisms claim is to salvation that exists through the Atonement. But it makes no claim of exclusivity to the internal voice which directs us to be closer to God.

The tenets of Mormonism are of external truths, external dieties (God, Jesus, Holy Ghost), external power (priesthood) and external rituals to arrive at some destination of future salvation (baptism, laying on of hands, priesthood ordination, temple covenants, etc etc).

No that is incorrect. It is both external and internal. You focus on the external and forget the greatest aspect of Mormonism is its focus on the internal. On the agency indelibly bound within each of us to choose to hear, to choose to act, to choose faith. It is the strongest internal force available in which all Mormons from the time they can understand the words are taught. That agency, choice, is theirs to make and no one elses.

The externalities are simply guides and symbolism, something you find in all belief systems, including the mystics whether Zoroastrianism or Janism or different forms of Buddhism.

The church places itself as the agent between the individual and God as the mediator of salvation. The LDS church is not that agent. It believes that its baptism, its laying on of hands and its priesthood is power, but they are symbols of what we have within and there is no power in the external rituals except what we cede to that perceived belief.

Much like the mystic that acts as teacher and medium to greater understanding. The LDS teaches greater truthes through symbolism much as has been taught elsewhere even in realms of mysticism.

[Jeff K.]

Right on Jeff. You laid out some perspectives I've never heard coming from the mouth of a Mormon. I appreciated that. However, your gift appears to be an ability to reshape and reconfigure concepts and fashion them to appear in alignment with Mormon teachings.

Also, the language of mystics and Mormons differ in at least one important aspect. Mystics speak from experience. Mormons speak from faith and belief. Jesus was a mystic. The language of Jesus and Mormons is fundamentally different in meaning.

It appears to me you are upset. But you don't know why. I do not reshap concepts or reconficture them or fashion them. Unless, heavens to betsy, you are learning something and your concepts therefore change. Tycho Brahe was once walking with an assistant in the evening observing the stars. His assitant commented on how silly earlier generations were that believed the earth was the center of the universe. Brahe stopped and stared thoughtfully up into the stars. His assitant asked him what he was doing. He replied.. "I wonder what the universe looked like then".

I don't reshape or reconfigure anything. Today is the same as yesterday.

Now if you are complaining that I am using words and concepts incorrectly. I would challenge you to show where and what words whose meaning I have changed. You claim the langauge of mystics and Mormons are different, yet can provide no examples. You will forgive me if I find that less then convincing. In fact I challenge you to show me where the language of Jesus as a mystic is different from the language of Mormonism. I see the Mormon church being close to Jesus than any other so it would follow that the langauage would be closer.

I would also state that generally what is clear in preception to those who objectively look at things, becomes blurred and distinct to those who bear personal prejudices towards the issue.

The analogy might be seeing a poor beggar on the street who is actually an enlightened individual. Or a poor farmboy that has actually communed with the creator of the universe. Or an itinerant carpenters son. In all cases we often look for an excuse to dismiss what has been explained. To quote that great mystic Jesus

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

I would challenge you to provide a clear dichotomy of language between what I have said and what your perceive to be mysticism.

Generally speaking, I see all religions operate in this manner; making God conform to their ideas of what God is. Truth cannot be contained, nor can it exist solely within the walls of any church, regardless of how elaborate the church is decorated with gold, rituals, symbols, and costumes.

You have pretty much hit upon the foundation of a Mormon concept. Truth cannot be contained. It is the knowledge of all things, as they objectively were, as they objectively are, and as they objectively will be. In fact Mormons do not believe truth can only exist within the walls of the church. Our prophets are huge proponents of knowledge and seeking truth where we can find it. Our symbolism exists to help us understand the concepts of truth, not to deny the truth exists elsewhere. In fact, any elaboration we have in the way of "decorations" is a reflection of the precious truths we seek, not the self aggrandizement of our church. The lowliest chapel, the smallest temple, to us is equal to the greatest we could possibly build. Because it is the truth we seek to know and understand that is precious to us.

Now there is something that I find interesting and I want to present a perspective experiment.

Michaelangelo was a great sculpture. His viewpoint was not to form carving, but to bring the carving out of the stone. From your perspective though, you would not be able to tell if Michaelangelo was making a carving, or bringing its true form from the stone. So when you look at Mormons, are they conforming God to their image, or are they bringing the image of God more clearly to man?

[nishka]

Prayer for saints is meditation and meditation exists as a prerequisite to good and true prayer. I agree.

But the words are of the same meaning. Withdrawing our conciousness to feel that still small voice and allow it to hold our attention is within us. It pretty much explains what Mormons strive to do when they pray.

I've never understood the purpose of mormon prayer to be the withdrawal of consciousness from the outward senses. You are the first to explain it as such. This is what is meant by 'The Light of the body is the eye: if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.' This is a practice taught by all true masters.

One in purpose with God. Absolutely.

Not our will but His will be done.

Individuality on the other hand need not disappear for there to be clear understanding or enlightenment if you will.

And becoming one with the Lord is the ultimate and it is indeed something we strive for, and in striving we "do", and we can only "do" so through his grace.

According to mystics, to merge with the Lord, individuality, or Ego, most definitely needs to be disappear. In fact our Ego is what keeps us separated from the Father.

It's good to hear someone speak of the inner or esoteric part of Mormonism. The esoteric teaching is not a man-made one, but a God-made one. The founders of religions (even though not their intent to start a religion) and true Masters have taught, not their own doctrine, but the doctrine of Him who sent them to this world.

Too much in Mormonism is focused on the external, the dogma, the prayers, the rites, etc. Too much seems to be focused on Joesph Smith.

[Jeff K.]

QUOTE(Jeff K. @ Jan 16 2009, 06:20 PM)

Prayer for saints is meditation and meditation exists as a prerequisite to good and true prayer. I agree.

But the words are of the same meaning. Withdrawing our conciousness to feel that still small voice and allow it to hold our attention is within us. It pretty much explains what Mormons strive to do when they pray.

I've never understood the purpose of mormon prayer to be the withdrawal of consciousness from the outward senses. You are the first to explain it as such. This is what is meant by 'The Light of the body is the eye: if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.' This is a practice taught by all true masters

.

I would suggest you read upon the visions that Joseph Smith had in the Doctrine and Covenants. The equivalent is also shared by various prophets in the Book of Mormon.

QUOTE(Jeff K. @ Jan 16 2009, 06:43 PM)

One in purpose with God. Absolutely.

Not our will but His will be done.

Individuality on the other hand need not disappear for there to be clear understanding or enlightenment if you will.

And becoming one with the Lord is the ultimate and it is indeed something we strive for, and in striving we "do", and we can only "do" so through his grace.

According to mystics, to merge with the Lord, individuality, or Ego, most definitely needs to be disappear. In fact our Ego is what keeps us separated from the Father

.

We state that it is not our will but the Lords will that must be done and we attempt to be in harmony with the Lords will in all things. This is done without losing ones individuality.

Too much in Mormonism is focused on the external, the dogma, the prayers, the rites, etc. Too much seems to be focused on Joesph Smith.

.

Actually if you knew most of the teachings of Mormons you would know that very little is focused on the external. Yes there are rites and symbolism. These are clues or help for us to understand the greater impact of God upon the world. But generally it isn't Mormons who focus on the ritual so much as those who attack Mormons. They see evil in the symbols, they decry Mormons as cults, false, and not worthy of study. Mormons dwell most on attempting to understand God, learning (not always successfully) to be humble. Striving to carry out that which is Gods will and not their own. Our prophets speak of it in general conferences, our stake presidents teach it in our stake conferences, our bishops work with us in a similar manner. All things are tied to personal revelation and personal understanding. The very first act of Joseph Smith down this road was to seek the knowledge of God. It is the template we all follow (to varying degrees of success).

Joseph Smith created a man-made system. His life, his words, his actions are not in line with the way of a true Saint

Now you see. That sounds more than a bit churlish and ungrateful. Throughout this discussion I have used the examples of Joseph Smiths life and his teachings. And I think I have successfully proven that much of what we do, is because he began it. You have not really coutered the positions I have made, and yet you state that what I have mentioned, using Joseph Smith's life as an example, is not in line with the way of a true saint. I would venture that Joseph Smith was a true Saint. He wanted to commune with God, and did. How often he could have left and done something else, something less controversial, perhaps been one of those wealthy preachers ...... And yet he remained, even with the persecution, tarring and feathering, his family being driven from home to home, even to his death. His life and his words, and his actions speak volumes of who he was.

Joseph Smith was a mystic. And while the church is well organized and runs well on various levels, organization by its nature does not belie mysticism. Organization is simply the vehicle that allows us to commune with God. Too many people still buy into the mystic who is "disorganized" like the Rudyard Kipling archetype in "Kim". There is no such requirement. One should see past the vehicle and understand the driver.

[nishka]

I agree. My last comment about JS came out of the blue and without much thought. No need for that.

I am interested in D&C account of his visions. Before I comment further about JS, I'll look into it.

[Jeff K.]

I appreciate that understanding.

For the account you can of course read the Joseph Smith History on line at LDS.org. For additional context I would also recommend Bushman on "Rough Stone Rolling".

[LeSellers]

Yes, This seems to be the method when one marries prayer with scripture study, but not the everyday prayers made at mealtimes, at church meetings or whenever the obligatory ritualistic prayer is needed to start or close the event or occasion. Prayer then, is a series of petitions and little else.

As a new second Lieutenant, I worked (indirectly ) for Admiral Stansfield Turner (just before Jimmy Carter tapped him to be the head Director of Central Intelligence). When I had to brief the Admiral, I did a lot of preparation. I knew what I was going to say, how to say it, and anticipated the questions he might have. It would take me at least two hours to prepare a ten minute briefing.

I believe that "briefing" God is even more important that briefing the Admiral. It seems we should prepare in much the same way I did back then, maybe more.

The word "pray" means "beg", so your characterization as its being a series of petitions is dead on. However, I believe that it is possible to pray and not ask for a thing. In fact, the only thing one must ask for is a submissive heart, to accept the will of the Lord.

Lehi

[PrettyNewMommy]

Is it possible for a woman to talk face to face with God or Jesus Christ? ..Or is that a no, no that dates back to Eve?

Praying..Before I became Mormon..I talked to God like I talked to a bestfriend..I talked to him about anything, asked him for things and thanked him for things. When I became Mormon my prayers became a whole less personable..Just from hearing all of the other impersonable prayers.. Now as of very recent I have decided to talk and pray with God how I use to. My DH can pray in the same...uniform way he likes to pray..However, I now pray like I am talking to my Father(In Heaven) and I feel much closer to him now...Than I have for quite a long time. As for God or Jesus Christ talking to me...I have problems with the church, and following all of the rules...Trusting in the doctrine..I feel when I pray(beg)to know if my questioning is wrong..That I am understood..I tell God all the time that I am sorry for questioning everything and I ask for understanding..b/c I honestly can't put two and two together with it seems like anything(of the church) to make sense...I feel understood and at ease..B/C I know he knows of my struggles and loves me just the same.

[aletheia]

Is a Prophet a Prophet? More specifically, does the current living Prophet have the same enlightenment as Joseph Smith?

As an active Mormon, is it possible to set up an appointment and ask Monson a question directly? Or any member of the Quorum?

Yes a prophet is a prophet. Yes the current prophet has the same enlightment as Joseph Smith.

No, president Monson has more important things to do. That's what bishops are for, delegation!

[aletheia]

Is it possible for a woman to talk face to face with God or Jesus Christ? ..Or is that a no, no that dates back to Eve?

Praying..Before I became Mormon..I talked to God like I talked to a bestfriend..I talked to him about anything, asked him for things and thanked him for things. When I became Mormon my prayers became a whole less personable..Just from hearing all of the other impersonable prayers.. Now as of very recent I have decided to talk and pray with God how I use to. My DH can pray in the same...uniform way he likes to pray..However, I now pray like I am talking to my Father(In Heaven) and I feel much closer to him now...Than I have for quite a long time. As for God or Jesus Christ talking to me...I have problems with the church, and following all of the rules...Trusting in the doctrine..I feel when I pray(beg)to know if my questioning is wrong..That I am understood..I tell God all the time that I am sorry for questioning everything and I ask for understanding..b/c I honestly can't put two and two together with it seems like anything(of the church) to make sense...I feel understood and at ease..B/C I know he knows of my struggles and loves me just the same.

Yes, it is possible for a women to talk face to face with God and Jesus Christ.

I respect your yearning for the truth. Try fasting before you pray next time and see if you recieve a clearer answer to your questions.

[Tchild2]

This is probably a silly question, because I'm trying to understand Mormon doctrine by way of the teaching of the mystics.

According to Mormon teachings, is it possible for an individual to meet Jesus or Joseph Sith or God on the inside, as an internal experience, while living?

In other words, is the Kingdom of Heaven inside, at the third eye?

How are you taught to "listen" to the still small voice? Is there a method in prayer whereby one stops "calling out" to the lord and is instructed to listen for a voice, or a ringing? Or is prayer simply a pleading and a thanking?

I think that many might classify Paramahansa Yogananda (PY) as a "mystic" in the eastern traditions. A quote from one of the disciples of PY:

"Self-realization is the knowing in all parts of body, mind, and soul that you are now in possession of the kingdom of God; that you do not have to pray that it come to you; that God's omnipresence is your omnipresence; and that all that you need to do is improve your knowing.

In is book, "Autobiography of a Yogi.", PY relates numerous physical manifestation with supernatural beings, one including a personal visit with Jesus Christ who spoke with PY, some of which is shared, and some that the author feels too private.

[PrettyNewMommy]

Yes, it is possible for a women to talk face to face with God and Jesus Christ.

I respect your yearning for the truth. Try fasting before you pray next time and see if you recieve a clearer answer to your questions.

I would fast..But I have to nurse a newborn..Maybe in a few months

[aletheia]

I would fast..But I have to nurse a newborn..Maybe in a few months

Oh, good point. Hmm, in past observations I've seen that a lot of people go into prayers with presupposed answers. In other words, they already have their own answer before they ask. I'm not saying this is your case, but subconsciously it is for a lot of people.

[urroner]

I would fast..But I have to nurse a newborn..Maybe in a few months

Yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing like that old "I can't fast because I'm nursing a baby" routine. Oh the excuses we come up with. Excuses are but the flimsy garments with which we seek to camouflage the nakedness of our weaknesses.

Urroner is now running to find cover from the rolling pins headed his way.

[mnn727]

Too much seems to be focused on Joesph Smith.

<<Shaking head>> Spoken like an outsider. At Church today I didn't hear one word about Joseph Smith in the first or last hour, I did however hear of him in Sunday School as the lesson this week was on the First Vison. But even then, the lesson was not entirely about him.

[mnn727]

When I became Mormon my prayers became a whole less personable..Just from hearing all of the other impersonable prayers..

Funny, when I became LDS my prayers became much more personable, like I was talking to my Father (which I am) instead of some unknown and unknowable force.

Sort of like talking to the man behind the curtain instead of "The Great and Powerful Wizard of OZ"

[Droopy]

Mystics seek God in the stillness between thoughts, the gap where thoughts cease.

And this means what, more precisely?