Is it possible to have a face-to-face with Jesus, JS, or God?

[The Nehor]

I simply see Christ as a God-realized soul (not of little significance, mind you). I see other historical figures, such as Buddah, as God-realized souls. They have merged with the supreme lord, of which there is only one.

Then he didn't know it. He kept insisting he was the only way into heaven. If he, the 'God-realized soul' didn't know who he was.....why would you?

[Jeff K.]

I thought I agreed with LeSellers? Prayers are petitions, if you are meditating before every opening and closing prayer, then that is super.

What you mistake though, at least from your post, is the assumption, that such a petition is the only action or even the orthodox manner in which the prayer should be made. Such a view is incorret.

[Jeff K.]

Is a Prophet a Prophet? More specifically, does the current living Prophet have the same enlightenment as Joseph Smith?

As an active Mormon, is it possible to set up an appointment and ask Monson a question directly? Or any member of the Quorum?

The testimonies are given quite often. And the response is generally given by the membership in general conference.

[mnn727]

As an active Mormon, is it possible to set up an appointment and ask Monson a question directly? Or any member of the Quorum?

As head of a Church with 13,000,000 members those days are long gone of someone dropping into the Church office bldg or even making an appointment. There really is very little that they could tell you that your local Bishop couldn;t tell you.

[nishka]

Thanks.

[Tchild2]

What you mistake though, at least from your post, is the assumption, that such a petition is the only action or even the orthodox manner in which the prayer should be made. Such a view is incorret.

I have been comparing Mormon prayers, which are an act of petition or gratitude compared to meditative prayers, which are an act of quieting the mind. Besides, we have nothing but your opinion as I do not think that the church has taken your version of the method of prayer to be voted on and made doctrine, as you put it; "The information was not put before the membership as doctrine."

Was it?

[Jeff K.]

Mormon prayers are meditative prayers. They are taught to be that way by the LDS. Not all LDS devote the time to be so, but that doesn't change the intended tenor or what the prayers should be.

Besides, we have nothing but your opinion as I do not think that the church has taken your version of the method of prayer to be voted on and made doctrine, as you put it; "The information was not put before the membership as doctrine."

Versus someone upset and disatisfied with the Mormon church? And you overlook the examples I presented (versus your lack of examples in the teachings of prayer). It appears yours is really the only one based soley on opinion.In fact the information was put before the general church and made voted on as doctrine. You can find out how to pray in the Doctrine and Covenants. You can also see the meditative methodology put into practice in the Joseph Smith History which was also put before the church. So it seems you are without foundation in your charges.Doctrine and Covenants 6:23Alma 5:46Moroni 10:3Helaman 10:32 Nephi 32: 8In fact petition is the most minor requirements:Doctrine and Covenants 46:30I would suggest that you revise your opinion given these references.

The information was not put before the membership as doctrine."Was it?

apparently it was.....

[nishka]

You can find out how to pray in the Doctrine and Covenants. You can also see the meditative methodology put into practice in the Joseph Smith History which was also put before the church.

This would interest me. Where can I find this info?

Would I need to be an active member in order to engage in Mormon meditation and prayer?

[Tchild2]

Mormon prayers are meditative prayers.

Then I am afraid you are not understanding "meditative" as it relates to meditating. LDS prayers may have a meditative component, and a gratitude component, but the core is supplication, petition and asking. "bless the food", "bless the speaker", "bless us to go / come in safety" etc etc. Meditating is not petitioning.

You can find out how to pray in the Doctrine and Covenants. . So it seems you are without foundation in your charges.Doctrine and Covenants 6:23Alma 5:46Moroni 10:3Helaman 10:32 Nephi 32: 8In fact petition is the most minor requirements:Doctrine and Covenants 46:30I would suggest that you revise your opinion given these references.apparently it was.....

D&C 46:30 He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh. That is petition. Remember, meditating is not asking.

You can also see the meditative methodology put into practice in the Joseph Smith History which was also put before the church.

I would be also interested in seeing this, and seeing when it was "put before the church". Can you cite this methodology and when and how it was put before the church?

[mnn727]

I think Mystics and Mormons really talk a different language - the words may be the same but the meaning is different.

[Jeff K.]

Then I am afraid you are not understanding "meditative" as it relates to meditating. LDS prayers may have a meditative component, and a gratitude component, but the core is supplication, petition and asking. "bless the food", "bless the speaker", "bless us to go / come in safety" etc etc. Meditating is not petitioning.

I have a very clear understanding of meditative prayer. While I appreciate you taking several steps back away from your "ritualistic" standpoint for Mormon prayer, you continue to be incorrect in your assertion.

Meditation is pondering, thoughtful prayer, contemplation, all of these work.

Now if you wanted to go specifically for a sub catagory in which it is incorrect in the context of merely stating meditation (ie transcendental meditation) then you would refer to the vedic writings which is of course not LDS.

It would appear my understanding is quite clear, but your imprecise and somewhat loose use of the term reduces you to appealing to what you think it means, and how LDS do not really engage in per your own opinion. In fact the petition is or should be a small part of prayer, as I have indicated in the scriptural reference.

This may be a reason you have perhaps left the church or perhaps during your membership did not fully understand what prayer meant in terms of the LDS. A bit like Christ in Matthew stating let those with ears hear. Perhaps you misunderstood what prayer was supposed to be given the references provided.

The Doctrine and Covenants were put before the church and accepted as such.

Introduction

Tell me, how do you think they were entered into the Doctrine and Covenants to begin with? As a former LDS have you ever pondered that? Perhaps meditated on it?

[Jeff K.]

I think Mystics and Mormons really talk a different language - the words may be the same but the meaning is different.

Not really. In fact Mormons are much closer to the ideal of mysticism than most Christian religions, at least in terms of msyticism, knowing God or being aware of a higher consciousness, all of those come into play and specifically came into play during the first vision of Joseph Smith. I am not sure I need to check, but I believe Bushman alluded to it in Rough Stone Rolling.

[nishka]

Mystics explain prayer as a language of love from the heart to the Father, no words are required, and nobody then exists between you and the Father. Meditation, they explain, will help you to live in the Will of the Lord, and that is the best prayer, to live in the Will of the Lord, to adjust to the events of life, and to accept with grace and a smile everything He gives to us. Its effects should reflect in all our actions.

Prayer is not when we ask the Father to fulfill our desires and satisfy our worldly ambitions. From a higher perspective, we don't know what's in our best interest. So why not leave everything to Him? Why show our lack of faith in him? We should have faith that whatever He gives us is in our best interest.

Saints explain that the purpose of meditation is to get rid of worldly thoughts. Meditation means withdrawing our consciousness to the eye center and holding our attention there, then attaching ourselves to the Word, which is within every one of us, and with the help of that detaching ourselves permanently, forever, from the lower senses. That is meditation.

[Tchild2]

I have a very clear understanding of meditative prayer. While I appreciate you taking several steps back away from your "ritualistic" standpoint for Mormon prayer, you continue to be incorrect in your assertion.

Meditation is pondering, thoughtful prayer, contemplation, all of these work.

We agree that Mormon meditation is what you have listed, but that is not meditation as is found as a form of prayer by mystics, Christian or otherwise. For the latter, meditation is a quieting of the mind, it is not "thoughtful", "pondering" or "contemplation", because those methods utilize the mind and thinking. Mormons may meditate, but the meanings of "meditate", dramatically differ. like MnM stated: "I think Mystics and Mormons really talk a different language - the words may be the same but the meaning is different."

It would appear my understanding is quite clear, but your imprecise and somewhat loose use of the term reduces you to appealing to what you think it means, and how LDS do not really engage in per your own opinion. In fact the petition is or should be a small part of prayer, as I have indicated in the scriptural reference.

Mormon prayers, whether meditation (pondering, contemplating), offering gratitude or begging supplication, utilize the mind.

This may be a reason you have perhaps left the church or perhaps during your membership did not fully understand what prayer meant in terms of the LDS. A bit like Christ in Matthew stating let those with ears hear. Perhaps you misunderstood what prayer was supposed to be given the references provided.

Not at all, I just realized that nothing about Mormonism was literally true, and "the fall" was just one of many proofs that what was revealed to prophets, wasn't in fact really true.

Tell me, how do you think they were entered into the Doctrine and Covenants to begin with? As a former LDS have you ever pondered that? Perhaps meditated on it?

You didn't answer my question. I am refering to the "methodology of meditating" prayer in the "Joseph Smith History", that you mentioned, but never cited. Besides, it is irrelevant because your concept of meditation is not what I am describing, and is the concept you are not getting.

[nishka]

I think Mystics and Mormons really talk a different language - the words may be the same but the meaning is different.

An example of this:

'The Kingdom of God is within you' - Luke 17:21

'Ye are the Temple of the living God' - II Corinthians 6:16

One of the fundamental truths emphasized by Jesus is the immanence of the kingdom of God, the fact that it is within each and every human being. This is also one of the cardinal precepts in the teachings of other great Masters.

The responses to my original question - "Is the Kingdom of God inside us? - indicate that God is an external entity. One brother seemed confused with the term kingdom (maybe it was the third eye).

Same words, different meanings.

[Tchild2]

An example of this:

'The Kingdom of God is within you' - Luke 17:21

'Ye are the Temple of the living God' - II Corinthians 6:16

One of the fundamental truths emphasized by Jesus is the immanence of the kingdom of God, the fact that it is within each and every human being. This is also one of the cardinal precepts in the teachings of other great Masters.

The responses to my original question - "Is the Kingdom of God inside us? - indicate that God is an external entity. One brother seemed confused with the term kingdom (maybe it was the third eye).

Same words, different meanings.

Exactly right Nishka. More examples include. "I Am", or "I Am that I Am", and "My father and I are one". These are internal states of awareness, and not external relationships or realities.

[Jeff K.]

Mystics explain prayer as a language of love from the heart to the Father, no words are required, and nobody then exists between you and the Father. Meditation, they explain, will help you to live in the Will of the Lord, and that is the best prayer, to live in the Will of the Lord, to adjust to the events of life, and to accept with grace and a smile everything He gives to us. Its effects should reflect in all our actions.

Prayer is not when we ask the Father to fulfill our desires and satisfy our worldly ambitions. From a higher perspective, we don't know what's in our best interest. So why not leave everything to Him? Why show our lack of faith in him? We should have faith that whatever He gives us is in our best interest.

Saints explain that the purpose of meditation is to get rid of worldly thoughts. Meditation means withdrawing our consciousness to the eye center and holding our attention there, then attaching ourselves to the Word, which is within every one of us, and with the help of that detaching ourselves permanently, forever, from the lower senses. That is meditation.

Prayer for saints is meditation and meditation exists as a prerequisite to good and true prayer. I agree.

But the words are of the same meaning. Withdrawing our conciousness to feel that still small voice and allow it to hold our attention is within us. It pretty much explains what Mormons strive to do when they pray.

[Jeff K.]

We agree that Mormon meditation is what you have listed, but that is not meditation as is found as a form of prayer by mystics, Christian or otherwise. For the latter, meditation is a quieting of the mind, it is not "thoughtful", "pondering" or "contemplation", because those methods utilize the mind and thinking. Mormons may meditate, but the meanings of "meditate", dramatically differ. like MnM stated: "I think Mystics and Mormons really talk a different language - the words may be the same but the meaning is different."

Mormon prayers, whether meditation (pondering, contemplating), offering gratitude or begging supplication, utilize the mind.

Not at all, I just realized that nothing about Mormonism was literally true, and "the fall" was just one of many proofs that what was revealed to prophets, wasn't in fact really true.

You didn't answer my question. I am refering to the "methodology of meditating" prayer in the "Joseph Smith History", that you mentioned, but never cited. Besides, it is irrelevant because your concept of meditation is not what I am describing, and is the concept you are not getting.

Well you keep inching more and more towards my position, I know it hurts but at least you are progressing. A long way from your petition view earlier.

And meditation by mystics is indeed pretty much what Joseph did. In fact a buddhist friend of mine was surprised at some of the similarities between Guatama's story and Joseph Smith first vision.

Anyone who tells you it is the "mind" that speaks with God and not the heart or faith is more than a little out of touch with prayer. This may be why you don't fully understand the concept. I might also suggest you read Enos in the Book of Mormon to see meditation and contemplation as the form of prayer.

The methodology that Joseph Smith used is fairly obvious. He did not simply go out and pray. The citation is in the JS History. Its not very long, you can read it if you haven't read it yet. So I did answer your question. Along with various other citations. I can't make you look them up. You have to do that on your own.

Mystics and Mormons do not talk a different language. That is a bit of a cop out, like saying "its a black thing". It isn't. And if you cannot clearly articulate the difference (as you inch closer and closer to my position) it may reflect a certain lack of experience regarding the context, either as a Mormon or post Mormon.

[The Nehor]

Mystics explain prayer as a language of love from the heart to the Father, no words are required, and nobody then exists between you and the Father. Meditation, they explain, will help you to live in the Will of the Lord, and that is the best prayer, to live in the Will of the Lord, to adjust to the events of life, and to accept with grace and a smile everything He gives to us. Its effects should reflect in all our actions.

Prayer is not when we ask the Father to fulfill our desires and satisfy our worldly ambitions. From a higher perspective, we don't know what's in our best interest. So why not leave everything to Him? Why show our lack of faith in him? We should have faith that whatever He gives us is in our best interest.

Saints explain that the purpose of meditation is to get rid of worldly thoughts. Meditation means withdrawing our consciousness to the eye center and holding our attention there, then attaching ourselves to the Word, which is within every one of us, and with the help of that detaching ourselves permanently, forever, from the lower senses. That is meditation.

This is where we disagree. The LDS faith is very physical. It is about doing and being. We consider having a physical body to be a great gift. We don't have lower senses. God asks us to petition him so that he can tell us what is right. Accepting what he gives is a passive response. While sometimes required this state of being is a learning state. I think I can learn more by asking and being refused lovingly then by taking a passive stance and just accepting whatever. God does not want to override our will with his own. He wants us to overcome the negative aspects of ourselves and become ourselves, not subsume us into himself. He likes our will, he made it himself. It may need adjustments and we are expected to make them but surrendering it to God does not mean to become passive. It means to let him tinker with it and perfect it.

[Jeff K.]

I would agree that we bring the meditative understanding to the physical level in the sense that we disassociate ourselves from sin and desire and turn what we feel and know, through our faith into action which is the exercise of faith.

If mystics get in touch with their "inner eye" and then do nothing in regard to what they have learned, then haven't they really simply been involved in a vacuous exercise? My buddhist friend doesn't believe such a thing is true enlightenment.

[nishka]

Prayer for saints is meditation and meditation exists as a prerequisite to good and true prayer. I agree.

Hmmmmm........ OR, the one and only 'good and true' prayer, the only one that pleases Him, is that we want to become one with Him. And only meditation makes us one with Him.

The goal here is complete unconditional surrender to the Father - eliminating our individuality, merging into the Being, this is prayer, this is meditation.

I think we are getting caught up in our shallow understanding of these two concepts. This will only cause confusion and nothing will become of it.

I'm speaking of the ultimate goal, the ideal. Becoming one with the Lord is not a simple matter, nor can it be something 'we do'. It is only by His grace that we are given anything.

[Jeff K.]

One in purpose with God. Absolutely.

Not our will but His will be done.

Individuality on the other hand need not disappear for there to be clear understanding or enlightenment if you will.

And becoming one with the Lord is the ultimate and it is indeed something we strive for, and in striving we "do", and we can only "do" so through his grace.

[Tchild2]

And meditation by mystics is indeed pretty much what Joseph did. In fact a buddhist friend of mine was surprised at some of the similarities between Guatama's story and Joseph Smith first vision.

Except that God doesn't exist as an anthopormophic projection to the mystic, because the mystic and God are one, which mediation helps to bring to awareness.

Anyone who tells you it is the "mind" that speaks with God and not the heart or faith is more than a little out of touch with prayer. This may be why you don't fully understand the concept. I might also suggest you read Enos in the Book of Mormon to see meditation and contemplation as the form of prayer.

When was the last time someone stood at sacrament and prayed without saying a word? Some prayers are contemplative for the individual, but they still involve focused contemplation, and all public LDS prayers are either of gratitude and/or supplication....ALWAYS, because they have a listening audience.

Mystics and Mormons do not talk a different language. That is a bit of a cop out, like saying "its a black thing". It isn't. And if you cannot clearly articulate the difference (as you inch closer and closer to my position) it may reflect a certain lack of experience regarding the context, either as a Mormon or post Mormon.

The language is different, because you are looking for something "out there", a God outside of yourself. The mystic seeks no such thing.

[The Nehor]

Hmmmmm........ OR, the one and only 'good and true' prayer, the only one that pleases Him, is that we want to become one with Him. And only meditation makes us one with Him.

The goal here is complete unconditional surrender to the Father - eliminating our individuality, merging into the Being, this is prayer, this is meditation.

I think we are getting caught up in our shallow understanding of these two concepts. This will only cause confusion and nothing will become of it.

I'm speaking of the ultimate goal, the ideal. Becoming one with the Lord is not a simple matter, nor can it be something 'we do'. It is only by His grace that we are given anything.

Now you're not preaching Christianity. You're preaching Buddhism with a different Buddha. The very center of the LDS faith is that God created unique individuals (his children) and wants them to stay that way so much he sacrificed his Only Begotten to give them a chance to become more and more themselves until they reach perfection in their own way with his help.

I've prayed such a prayer before when I was caught up in mystic thinking. I learned that God is NOT pleased by such a prayer. He loves me. He doesn't want me to surrender myself back into him. He wants me to be who I am in ways I cannot comprehend at this time.

[nishka]

Let me just clarify what I meant by a couple things:

The terms Saint, Mystic, and Master mean the same thing. This is what Jesus was. I did not mean current members of the church.

Lower senses means our five senses. These are what inform our mind. Our mind is what we must get under control. Meditation is what is used to turn the mind from our worst enemy into our best friend.

To quote Jeff K. "God does not want to override our will with his own." I just want to suggest that maybe, just maybe, you don't have as much free will as you imagine yourself to have. This, by the way, goes for everybody, myself included.