nishka Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 This is probably a silly question, because I'm trying to understand Mormon doctrine by way of the teaching of the mystics.According to Mormon teachings, is it possible for an individual to meet Jesus or Joseph Sith or God on the inside, as an internal experience, while living?In other words, is the Kingdom of Heaven inside, at the third eye?How are you taught to "listen" to the still small voice? Is there a method in prayer whereby one stops "calling out" to the lord and is instructed to listen for a voice, or a ringing? Or is prayer simply a pleading and a thanking?Thank you
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 This is probably a silly question, because I'm trying to understand Mormon doctrine by way of the teaching of the mystics.According to Mormon teachings, is it possible for an individual to meet Jesus or Joseph Sith or God on the inside, as an internal experience, while living?In other words, is the Kingdom of Heaven inside, at the third eye?How are you taught to "listen" to the still small voice? Is there a method in prayer whereby one stops "calling out" to the lord and is instructed to listen for a voice, or a ringing? Or is prayer simply a pleading and a thanking?Thank youYes, however if you meet God or Jesus it is because they wish to visit you. Unless you eat them, it cannot be a completely internal experience though the visitation of the Holy Ghost is an internal process.The Kingdom of Heaven is in Heaven which is at least a culture and possibly a specific place as well.This depends on the individual. Each person adapts to how the Holy Ghost communicates with them. I usually have a quiet confirmation and clear intelligence communicated to me. I also sometimes dream. Some people have visions, some can sense rightness, etc. I only know how it works for me.
mnn727 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 This is probably a silly question, because I'm trying to understand Mormon doctrine by way of the teaching of the mystics.According to Mormon teachings, is it possible for an individual to meet Jesus or Joseph Sith or God on the inside, as an internal experience, while living?In other words, is the Kingdom of Heaven inside, at the third eye?How are you taught to "listen" to the still small voice? Is there a method in prayer whereby one stops "calling out" to the lord and is instructed to listen for a voice, or a ringing? Or is prayer simply a pleading and a thanking?Thank you Third eye? Kingdom inside? not sure what you are asking or even talking about. Joseph Smith is not a god so to ask a question about meeting: him, Jesus and God is not in the same league
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Visions, including visions of other people can be internal (third eye, forth eye, in what ever classification you wish to give it), they can also be physical in which the person is before you.
Tchild2 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 This is probably a silly question, because I'm trying to understand Mormon doctrine by way of the teaching of the mystics.According to Mormon teachings, is it possible for an individual to meet Jesus or Joseph Sith or God on the inside, as an internal experience, while living?In other words, is the Kingdom of Heaven inside, at the third eye?How are you taught to "listen" to the still small voice? Is there a method in prayer whereby one stops "calling out" to the lord and is instructed to listen for a voice, or a ringing? Or is prayer simply a pleading and a thanking?Thank youMormonism is a very literal religion, with literal external realities as the highest truth. Mormons can and do have internal subjective experiences, but those are relegated as lesser, as it relates to the church and how truth is imparted to the body of believers collectively. - Joseph Smith's Theophany is believed to be an external visitation. - The visitation by Jesus Christ at the Kirtland Temple simultaneously to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery is believed to be an external visitation. - The multiple visitations by the resurrected angel Moroni instructing and preparing J.S to translate the Book of Mormon are external. - The visitations by various biblicial prophets including Moses, Eliajah, Elias, Noah were all external visitations -- they had to be because they came to physically impart priesthood "keys" to Joseph Smith.I can't speak for all, but for most, prayer is a supplication and petition, not a "listening" as is the tradition for mystics who are meditating to quiet the mind and thoughts.My take anyway.
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I suggest you read Doctrine and Covenants 137 and 138. I believe you will need to revise your position based on those chapters.Prayer is taught as a request and petition but petition includes listening. I cannot tell how often "still small voice" is used within the teachings of the church.
Shadowolf Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Joseph Sith??? I didn't know Joseph had turned to the dark side Sorry I couldn't help it
Sparty Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 It tough to reconcile two philosophies that are not compatible. I'm not sure understanding LDS thought through a mystic lens works.
Tchild2 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I suggest you read Doctrine and Covenants 137 and 138. I believe you will need to revise your position based on those chapters.Prayer is taught as a request and petition but petition includes listening. I cannot tell how often "still small voice" is used within the teachings of the church.Are you talking to me or the OP? anyway, yes, prayer is a petition and one must "listen" for the response, but the method to listen is much different for Mormons than mystics (meditators is probably a better word). "Listening" in Mormonism is being patient, waiting and contemplating, usually after the petition is made. For a meditator "Listening" is the whole prayer and is accomplished by quieting the mind where thoughts cease (I haven't done it, just read about it).They are very different. Mystics don't view God as an anthropomorphic being "out there" separate and distinct, Mormons do. Mystics seek God in the stillness between thoughts, the gap where thoughts cease.I would say that the concept of "the still small voice" is one of Mormonism's closest mystical concepts, interpreted a bit differently however by them.
cjcampbell Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 This is probably a silly question, because I'm trying to understand Mormon doctrine by way of the teaching of the mystics.According to Mormon teachings, is it possible for an individual to meet Jesus or Joseph Sith or God on the inside, as an internal experience, while living?In other words, is the Kingdom of Heaven inside, at the third eye?How are you taught to "listen" to the still small voice? Is there a method in prayer whereby one stops "calling out" to the lord and is instructed to listen for a voice, or a ringing? Or is prayer simply a pleading and a thanking?Thank youLDS doctrine is somewhat anti-mystical in nature. We are basically materialists. So we do not have a concept of a "third eye" in the mystical sense. We do believe, however, that our physical bodies are inhabited by individual spirits which have abilities of their own. Joseph Smith pointed out that we cannot see God with our natural eyes, but only with our spiritual eyes. However, even spirits are material in nature -- they are made of some sort of matter.Nevertheless, it is possible for God and Jesus to appear to us as they did to Joseph Smith. It is possible for Joseph Smith to appear to us, as Moroni, an ancient prophet, appeared to him. When they appear to us, it is possible to touch them and feel them, speak with them as we would to one another, give them objects and receive objects from them, and in general interact with them the same as we do with other people all of the time.We are taught that we should always listen for an answer to our prayers. This has been taught from the beginning. These answers do not take the form of any sort of ringing -- we are not spiritualists -- but we may well hear a voice or someone to speaking to our minds or hearts or simply a confirmation that something is right. Further, as holders of the priesthood, we have the right to act in God's name. This is not a prayer, but an action that is performed as if God were doing it Himself. If we give a blessing to heal the sick, for example, this blessing should be spoken as if God is speaking it. It is not a pleading -- it is a command, with this limitation: the things of this earth tend to ignore commands that are given unrighteously. Thus, a priesthood holder can bless an elderly person suffering from a terminal disease to live and this command will have little to no effect; it is contaminated by the unrighteous desires of the priesthood holder and actually works to his own condemnation. Thus, in exercising the priesthood, we should always be particularly sure that we are in tune with the will of God.Perhaps I cannot use my priesthood to command Mt. Rainier to move further east into the Cascades simply so I can show off my great powers -- this would certainly work to my own condemnation -- but if Elder Oaks asks me to make sure that we are going to have good weather for a temple cornerstone laying, you can be sure that my priesthood will be used to good effect.So, third eye? No. We are not mystics. We believe that everything that God does has a physical and material explanation for it, and that everything we do in His name likewise has a physical and material foundation. If our understanding of matter is imperfect, it is only because our scientific progress and investigation into the nature of matter is also imperfect and also because God has not chosen to reveal everything to us. We do believe that many great and wonderful revelations pertaining to this are yet forthcoming. It is a fact that scientists, even those that are atheists, owe most, if not all, of their advances in human knowledge to revelations they have received directly from God.
nishka Posted January 16, 2009 Author Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I do realize I'm comparing apples to oranges. However, I also feel similarly when trying to understand Mormonism through the teachings of Jesus. This is probably because I see Jesus as a mystic, as his teachings echo the truth spoken by other mystics.I was just trying to understand if God is an external reality in the eyes of Mormons, and from the above posts, it appears to be the case.I guess I was misinformed that one must go through Joseph Smith and Jesus in order to enter Heaven. I therefore placed him in the same league as Jesus. My bad.
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Are you talking to me or the OP? anyway, yes, prayer is a petition and one must "listen" for the response, but the method to listen is much different for Mormons than mystics (meditators is probably a better word). "Listening" in Mormonism is being patient, waiting and contemplating, usually after the petition is made. For a meditator "Listening" is the whole prayer and is accomplished by quieting the mind where thoughts cease (I haven't done it, just read about it).They are very different. Mystics don't view God as an anthropomorphic being "out there" separate and distinct, Mormons do. Mystics seek God in the stillness between thoughts, the gap where thoughts cease.I would say that the concept of "the still small voice" is one of Mormonism's closest mystical concepts, interpreted a bit differently however by them.Meditation is indeed described in detail for Mormons. One can also include words such as ponder.... And no, it must happen before prayer and the search for further understanding. It is a basic philosophy in the church.I would suggest to you that Mormons in general think and ponder an issue deeply and then pray, following the method shown by Joseph Smith in his first vision.The "stillness between gaps" is nice, but as a mystic once told me. It is for tourists, not for mystics. Siddarta Guatama himself considered a great mystic, was wont to ponder when he meditated and came up with the philosophical stance that Buddhists use today.
nishka Posted January 16, 2009 Author Posted January 16, 2009 thanks cjcampbell.That seemed like an honest response to an honest inquiry. Much appreciated.
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I do realize I'm comparing apples to oranges. However, I also feel similarly when trying to understand Mormonism through the teachings of Jesus. This is probably because I see Jesus as a mystic, as his teachings echo the truth spoken by other mystics.I was just trying to understand if God is an external reality in the eyes of Mormons, and from the above posts, it appears to be the case.I guess I was misinformed that one must go through Joseph Smith and Jesus in order to enter Heaven. I therefore placed him in the same league as Jesus. My bad.I am not sure how you might define mystic. I do see Christ as a mystic in a sense but there are many different definitions of it.
LeSellers Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 "Listening" in Mormonism is being patient, waiting and contemplating, usually after the petition is made.I believe you have oversimplified here. It's a three-step process.The meditation and contemplation is the first step, even before prayer. We read: 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.Contemplate (study) first, then ask. Then listen. Lehi
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Forget it, he won't listen, no matter how right you are.
Tchild2 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I believe you have oversimplified here. It's a three-step process.The meditation and contemplation is the first step, even before prayer. We read: Contemplate (study) first, then ask. Then listen. LehiYes, This seems to be the method when one marries prayer with scripture study, but not the everyday prayers made at mealtimes, at church meetings or whenever the obligatory ritualistic prayer is needed to start or close the event or occasion. Prayer then, is a series of petitions and little else.
Tchild2 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Forget it, he won't listen, no matter how right you are.Are we in Jr. High again? Are you typing from some Junior High internet room in between classes? I hope you have a permission slip from your parents allowing you to post on adult age sites?
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I do realize I'm comparing apples to oranges. However, I also feel similarly when trying to understand Mormonism through the teachings of Jesus. This is probably because I see Jesus as a mystic, as his teachings echo the truth spoken by other mystics.I was just trying to understand if God is an external reality in the eyes of Mormons, and from the above posts, it appears to be the case.I guess I was misinformed that one must go through Joseph Smith and Jesus in order to enter Heaven. I therefore placed him in the same league as Jesus. My bad.Jesus was killed because he wasn't a mystic. He insisted on teaching concrete realities insisting his Father was God and that he God (a mystic might say that and then add that others were also God, he did not). He insisted on a literal judgment involving punishment and reward. He taught in metaphor but comparing what he said to what the mystics say (and I've read a bit) is a stretch.
nishka Posted January 16, 2009 Author Posted January 16, 2009 I simply see Christ as a God-realized soul (not of little significance, mind you). I see other historical figures, such as Buddah, as God-realized souls. They have merged with the supreme lord, of which there is only one.
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 How would that explain John the Baptist?Is mysticism self defined or imposed?
Jeff K. Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Yes, This seems to be the method when one marries prayer with scripture study, but not the everyday prayers made at mealtimes, at church meetings or whenever the obligatory ritualistic prayer is needed to start or close the event or occasion. Prayer then, is a series of petitions and little else.Your ad homs aside. We are not taught to pray differently for scriptrual understanding as opposed to other prayers. In fact I do not know of any catagorization of prayer that you seem to adhere to. And frankly meal prayers, which may indeed be perfunctionary for some who want to eat quickly, it is not taught as such.We are to ponder and pray and think of the sacrifices made for the meal (which is often acknowledged in prayers), and a prayer is started before all activities, but they are not ritualistic. They may be done in a perfunctionary manner when the person about to pray does not do so properly, but such an action is not taught in the church. In fact the church tries very hard to teach us to pray meaningfully (ie with meditiation) during all opportunities to pray.Prayers are not, and were never meant to be a series of petitions in the church. It is the weakness of those who pray that make it so.
nishka Posted January 16, 2009 Author Posted January 16, 2009 Is a Prophet a Prophet? More specifically, does the current living Prophet have the same enlightenment as Joseph Smith?As an active Mormon, is it possible to set up an appointment and ask Monson a question directly? Or any member of the Quorum?
Tchild2 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Prayers are not, and were never meant to be a series of petitions in the church. It is the weakness of those who pray that make it so.I thought I agreed with LeSellers? Prayers are petitions, if you are meditating before every opening and closing prayer, then that is super.
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