Owen & Mosser - Their Words/their Views

[rabanes]

Okay, you agree with them, fair enough. What do you want me to do about it, that you agree with them?

Nothing. At this point, however, I must say, it's just a little odd to me that suddenly no one has anything to say to comments made by Owen and Mosser, which I think would have had a very different response had I said those exact same words. Here, let us assume that I have just started a new thread, and I have just stated the following:

"More than any other new religious movement, Mormonism presents

a challenge to

the health and growth of

authentic

Christianity

. It is also the most insistent of these groups in its

claims

to be Christian

[various LDS claims listed, including devotion to 'Christ']. . . .This devotion to Christ, they insist, is more than sufficient for Mormonism to be considered an authentic Christian faith [Owen & Mosser then note the LDS claims that Mormonism only differs from mainstream Christianity by the fullness of Gospel it holds]. . . . This

gives the

impression

that Mormonism is basically Christian, differentiated from other forms of Christianity primarily by additions and modifications" (emphases added).

"By now it should be very clear that Mormonism represents a world

far removed from

that of the earliest Christians and the orthodox tradition. We

cannot accept its claim to restore earliest Christianity

. To be sure, at the doctrinal level Mormonism has a structure similar to Christianity's, and its devotion to Jesus is sincere. Both, however, are nested in a worldview that

undermines true knowledge of God and salvation

. Like those of the Gnostics, many

Mormon teachings are antithetical to a Christian vision of reality

. . . . The 'restored Gospel' of

Mormonism must be clearly distinguished from the biblical gospel

. For these reasons

Mormonism cannot be meaningfully or properly classified as a Christian faith

" (emphases added).

There. I wonder what would have been said, if I had posted tihs under my own name. Of course, unlike Owen and Mosser's last comment, my book (Inside Today's Mormonism / Becoming Gods) actually reads: "Having made all of the above clear, it would be negligent of me not to mention that a legitimate argument can indeed be made for calling Latter-day Saints 'Christian'" (p. 265).

Feel free to interact with the above, as well as anything else I stated in the OP.

RA

[ryanelwood]

There. I wonder what would have been said, if I had posted tihs under my own name. Of course, unlike Owen and Mosser's last comment, my book (Inside Today's Mormonism / Becoming Gods) actually reads: "Having made all of the above clear, it would be negligent of me not to mention that a legitimate argument can indeed be made for calling Latter-day Saints 'Christian'" (p. 265).

RA

I stand corrected about your view concerning Mormons and Christians.

[zerinus]

Nothing. At this point, however, I must say, it's just a little odd to me that suddenly no one has anything to say to comments made by Owen and Mosser, which I think would have had a very different response had I said those exact same words. Here, let us assume that I have just started a new thread, and I have just stated the following:

"More than any other new religious movement, Mormonism presents

a challenge to

the health and growth of

authentic

Christianity

. It is also the most insistent of these groups in its

claims

to be Christian

[various LDS claims listed, including devotion to 'Christ']. . . .This devotion to Christ, they insist, is more than sufficient for Mormonism to be considered an authentic Christian faith [Owen & Mosser then note the LDS claims that Mormonism only differs from mainstream Christianity by the fullness of Gospel it holds]. . . . This

gives the

impression

that Mormonism is basically Christian, differentiated from other forms of Christianity primarily by additions and modifications" (emphases added).

"By now it should be very clear that Mormonism represents a world

far removed from

that of the earliest Christians and the orthodox tradition. We

cannot accept its claim to restore earliest Christianity

. To be sure, at the doctrinal level Mormonism has a structure similar to Christianity's, and its devotion to Jesus is sincere. Both, however, are nested in a worldview that

undermines true knowledge of God and salvation

. Like those of the Gnostics, many

Mormon teachings are antithetical to a Christian vision of reality

. . . . The 'restored Gospel' of

Mormonism must be clearly distinguished from the biblical gospel

. For these reasons

Mormonism cannot be meaningfully or properly classified as a Christian faith

" (emphases added).

There. I wonder what would have been said, if I had posted tihs under my own name. Of course, unlike Owen and Mosser's last comment, my book (Inside Today's Mormonism / Becoming Gods) actually reads: "Having made all of the above clear, it would be negligent of me not to mention that a legitimate argument can indeed be made for calling Latter-day Saints 'Christian'" (p. 265).

Feel free to interact with the above, as well as anything else I stated in the OP.

RA

Okay, you want my response to comments you have posted from Owen and Mosser, the answer is simple, I don't agree with them. What more do you want me to say?

zerinus

[rabanes]

I don't agree with them.

Interesting.

What more do you want me to say?

Nothing.RA

I stand corrected about your view concerning Mormons and Christians.

I suggest you read Inside Today's Mormonism / Becoming Gods, pp. 251-282), where I take a whole chapter -- "The 'Christian' Question" -- to tease apart this complex issue. RA

[zerinus]

Interesting.

Nothing.RAI

So what was the purpose of your thread?

zerinus

[rabanes]

So what was the purpose of your thread?

By asking questions about the thread, you are off-topic. The OP is clear. Address it, or respind to it, or comment on it -- or not.

RA

[Anijen]

I wish I had a sock puppet about now because I already apoligized.

By asking questions about the thread, you are off-topic. The OP is clear. Address it, or respind to it, or comment on it -- or not.

RA

Emphasis mine. Isnt that what he did?

Topic #1 Who is not anti-Mormon, A Curiosity Question;

a. Answer with agreement only with my opinion.

b. If you disagree with me see topic #2 subject a.

Topic #2 Owen & Mosser - Their Words/their Views;

a. Blame these two guys not me.

This seems like a circular argument done in two cycling post very cool and tricky if you ask me.

[BCSpace]

If you have something to say to LDS, and want their response, you may do the same too.

I have. I suggest you read the OP again. I stated: "I agree 100% with the above statements by Juliann's precious Paul Owen and Carl Mosser. . . . I agree with them completely and honor their scholarship and academic training that has led them to their conclusions." I said more to you in the OP, if you'd be so kind as to read it again. Once more, please address their observations -- not me.

Agreeing with Owen's and Mosser's assessment of LDS theology doesn't absolve one of antiMormonism. An antiMormon in my book is one who lies, negatively sensationalizes, or otherwise applies yellow journalism when reporting about the LDS Church. I have no problem if one claims that I am not a Christian or authentic Christian etc. I do not consider those to be an antiMormon statements. Afterall, by claiming that we are the only true Church, we essentially have relagated you to the world of paganism, the church of the Devil, and the Telestial Kingdom, possibly after a stint in hell (I personally think that stint is reserved for the unrepentant and wicked).

Now having said that, I personally do not know if such is the case (antiMormon) with regards to you because I haven't read your publications/ podcasts/ whatever it is you do. However, there are others who I trust who consider you to be an antiMormon so you'll just have to accept the fact that I will go along with them on that for now.

What I do know from your posts is that you are essentially a Biblical illiterate and know little of early Christian history. But the same can be said for most evangelical Christians who come up to do battle with LDS theology. They are, as Owen and Mosser seem to have realized, ill-prepared to deal with the LDS Biblical juggernaut and it's related scholarship.

My assessment is that no amount of study and preparation can refute LDS doctrine with regards to the Bible conflicting with it because the prophets and apostles therein are members of the same Church I am.

[zerinus]

By asking questions about the thread, you are off-topic.

No I am not.

The OP is clear.

It is not.

Address it, or respind to it, or comment on it -- or not.

I did respond to it, and this is the answer I got:

Interesting.

Nothing.RAI

Still not any the wiser. What was the purpose of your thread?

zerinus

[Bernard Gui]

ONUG is not the topic of this thread. Please stay on-topic with OP: "I'll merely submit the views of Owen and Mosser as my perspective -- so now, fight with them."

Richard, ONUG will always be the topic when you come around. It's your albatross,

the monkey on your back. It's your baby and you have to burp it and change it.

What would be the point of "fighting" with Owen and Mosser?

Bernard

[urroner]

I was raised on a farm and if anybody in the family or one of the farmhands ever started out by whining and sniveling, he would have been ignored and he would have opened himself to being teased and tormented by all those around him and he wouldn't have gained any respect of it from those around him. Richard starts out this thread with some totally awesome whining and some great touchie/feelie sniveling and then he demands that we respect him. If one has to demand respect from those whom he chooses to surround himself with, then one doesn't deserve that respect. One has to earn that respect.

Richard, what have you done to earn my respect?

[rabanes]

Emphasis mine. Isnt that what he did?

I never said he did otherwise, except when seeking to talk about the motivation/meta-reasons for the actual post itself, which is a not about teh substance of the post, but me as a person behind the post. And that is off-topic of the OP.

Topic #1 Who is not anti-Mormon, A Curiosity Question; a. Answer with agreement only with my opinion.b. If you disagree with me see topic #2 subject a. Topic #2 Owen & Mosser - Their Words/their Views; a. Blame these two guys not me.

You are inventing a story about my motivation, my thought processes, my stated purpose of both posts, the flow of events, and not to mention my integrity (which I'm sure you have no problem questioning. Once more, my points about the suspicion and distrust are illustrated well.

This seems like a circular argument done in two cycling post very cool and tricky if you ask me.

Neither cool, nor tricky. It is fascinating how no one can stay on-topic, but instead, seek to find ways of making more accusations and deepening the divide.

Agreeing with Owen's and Mosser's assessment of LDS theology doesn't absolve one of antiMormonism

I never said it did. That is not in the post. Please stay on-topic.

What I do know from your posts is that you are essentially a Biblical illiterate and know little of early Christian history. But the same can be said for most evangelical Christians who come up to do battle with LDS theology. They are, as Owen and Mosser seem to have realized, ill-prepared to deal with the LDS Biblical juggernaut and it's related scholarship.

Off-topic personal attack. No response. Please stay on-topic.

Richard, ONUG will always be the topic when you come around. It's your albatross, the monkey on your back. It's your baby and you have to burp it and change it. What would be the point of "fighting" with Owen and Mosser?

Interact to with actual internal content with OP.....or don't.

Richard starts out this thread with some totally awesome whining and some great touchie/feelie sniveling and then he demands that we respect him. . . . Richard, what have you done to earn my respect?

More personal attacks. Please just interact to with actual internal content with OP.....or don't.

Thank you,

RA

[urroner]

More personal attacks. Please just interact to with actual internal content with OP.....or don't.

Thank you,

RA

I was interacting with the actual internal content of you first post. To whit:

It's become apparent that I can't say much of anything here without being tarred and feathered by preconceived notions, misconceptions, prejudice, bias, and to be honest, a rather troubling level of pure hate, anger, malice, disrespect, and juvenile name-calling. That's too bad.

[Anijen]

I never said he did otherwise, except when seeking to talk about the motivation/meta-reasons for the actual post itself, which is a not about teh substance of the post, but me as a person behind the post. And that is off-topic of the OP.

You are inventing a story about my motivation, my thought processes, my stated purpose of both posts, the flow of events, and not to mention my integrity (which I'm sure you have no problem questioning. Once more, my points about the suspicion and distrust are illustrated well.

Neither cool, nor tricky. It is fascinating how no one can stay on-topic, but instead, seek to find ways of making more accusations and deepening the divide.

I never said it did. That is not in the post. Please stay on-topic.

Off-topic personal attack. No response. Please stay on-topic.

Interact to with actual internal content with OP.....or don't.

More personal attacks. Please just interact to with actual internal content with OP.....or don't.

Thank you,

RA

Many of these are some great quotes (especially Bernard Gui's) but most are not mine. Though they are clever. Please credit those quotes to those who wrote them, thanks.

Post #37 has all the quotes attributed from Anijen many are not mine thanks...

[Obiwan]

Owen and Mosser quoted stuff by Abanes.... blah blah

Hey Richard..... Tell you a little secret.... I saw NOTHING ANTI-MORMON in what you quoted of them in your OP.

Sure, are they "contrary" to mormonism, have a different view, believe we are false, of course.... what would we expect.

But, I've seen nothing of them per-se that can be considered anti-mormon.

I'm not an expert on them however, but from what I've seen of them so far here and there over the years, not one bit.

But Richard..... let me tell you another little secret. Almost EVERYTHING YOU have written more often than not IS most certainly anti-mormon.

LDS have nothing against people who simply think we are wrong or false. After all, we believe the same about them. But that doesn't make that person "anti" them or us even if they write about it.

Sure, maybe in a very small degree because they even write about us at all in any sort of way that might be critical, they could be by the strictest definition of the word be considered anti-mormon. But, the problem is is that LDS use the term anti-mormon to apply to those who are absolutely immoral and lacking of the charity of Christ towards this Church and it's people and leaders. Anti-mormons to us are people who are MOST of the counter-cult industry who bear false witness about us in almost every issue and/or degrade us in almost every issue. These people are all through the net, all through your's and other like kind books. You've been corrupted and decieved towards doing evil by the evil one and you don't care. That's the problem. We have a problem with LIARS! Not people who simply disagree and have a different view of "what is Truth".

The Church of the Devil is the church anti-mormonism is a part of..... It's that spiritual church of darkness and evil.

Your particular Church you worship at is not..... for it seeks after and strives for the light I'm guessing in most cases. The Light is of Christ.

Anti-mormonism and anti-mormons have not the Light in them in this evil fruit they have created and promote.

It is a Church within your Church, a false Church. You would thus do well to separate yourself from this particular man-made church, because it has NOTHING of GOD within it!!!

And to be really clear about it..... Owen and Mosser DO NOT APPEAR TO BE A PART OF THAT CHURCH OF THE DEVIL. But you do.....

Being apparently a good Christian in general does not purify you from this particular wicked fruit you embrace. For it does GREAT evil in the souls and minds of men.

[zerinus]

So please keep reading:

"More than any other new religious movement, Mormonism presents

a challenge to

the health and growth of

authentic

Christianity

. It is also the most insistent of these groups in its

claims

to be Christian

[various LDS claims listed, including devotion to 'Christ']. . . .This devotion to Christ, they insist, is more than sufficient for Mormonism to be considered an authentic Christian faith [Owen & Mosser then note the LDS claims that Mormonism only differs from mainstream Christianity by the fullness of Gospel it holds]. . . . This

gives the

impression

that Mormonism is basically Christian, differentiated from other forms of Christianity primarily by additions and modifications" (emphases added).

To Everyone an Answer

(pp. 324-325, "Mormonism," Carl Mosser and Paul Owen)

Editors: Francis J. Beckwith, Norman L. Geisler, William Lane Craig, James Porter Moreland

InterVarsity Press, 2004

After these opening pages, Owen and Mosser proceed to deconstruct, criticize, and refute several core LDS doctrines (pp. 326-335). The conclusion of Paul Owen and Carl Mosser is as follows:

"By now it should be very clear that Mormonism represents a world

far removed from

that of the earliest Christians and the orthodox tradition. We

cannot accept its claim to restore earliest Christianity

. To be sure, at the doctrinal level Mormonism has a structure similar to Christianity's, and its devotion to Jesus is sincere. Both, however, are nested in a worldview that

undermines true knowledge of God and salvation

. Like those of the Gnostics, many

Mormon teachings are antithetical to a Christian vision of reality

. . . . The 'restored Gospel' of

Mormonism must be clearly distinguished from the biblical gospel

. For these reasons

Mormonism cannot be meaningfully or properly classified as a Christian faith

"

To Everyone an Answer

(pp. 336-337 "Mormonism," Carl Mosser and Paul Owen)

Editors: Francis J. Beckwith, Norman L. Geisler, William Lane Craig, James Porter Moreland

InterVarsity Press, 2004

I agree 100% with the above statements by Juliann's precious Paul Owen and Carl Mosser, authors of "Mormon scholarship, apologetics, and evangelical neglect: Losing the battle and not knowing it?," which Juliann glowingly referred to as a "groundbreaking article" (see Post #25 in this thread). But since, for whatever reason, I can't say these very same words without having the entire board convulsing and gnashing their teeth, I'll merely submit the views of Owen and Mosser as my perspective -- so now, fight with them.

Interestingly, many of the critical points and reasonings they offered in their chapter in response to Mormonism mirror a good number of my own arguments (as voiced in Inside Today's Mormonism / Becoming Gods), although my arguments are greatly expanded and more detailed since I presented an entire book on LDS doctrine.

So, again, this is for all of you who find Owen and Mosser to NOT be "anti-Mormon." I agree with them completely and honor their scholarship and academic training that has led them to their conclusions.

Thank you. I also know of someone by the name of Joseph Smith who has published a book called the Book of Mormon. Here is a quote from its Title Page:

THE BOOK OF MORMON

AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES

TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanitesâ??Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentileâ??Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelationâ??Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyedâ??To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereofâ??Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentileâ??The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off foreverâ??And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nationsâ??And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

I agree 100% with the above statement.

zerinus

[Tsuzuki]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: Tsuzuki.

[Bernard Gui]

Interact to with actual internal content with OP.....or don't.

The OP began with the sad tale of your treatment by the nasty Internet

Mormons here. The reason for that rejection is ONUG and subsequent

denial of its anti-Mormon bias.

Can you produce a quote by Musser or Owen that even remotely comes

close to this:

"The history of Mormonism is rife with nefarious deeds, corruption, vice, and intolerance.

So far the fruits of Mormonism have included lust, greed, theft, fraud, violence, murder,

religious fanaticism, bribery, and racism. Will Mormonism's future harvest be any

different?" ONUG p. 436

Substitute "Judaism" or "Christianity" for "Mormonism" and ask yourself about the result.

Bernard

[Aquilifer]

ONUG, to paraphrase Alexander Campbell, contains every error and almost every truth discussed about Mormonism for the last 178 years.

Now, having created this mishmah as a useful tool to bludgeon Mormons with, Mr. Abanes also wants us to respect him for it.

[rabanes]

Almost EVERYTHING YOU have written more often than not IS most certainly anti-mormon....the problem is is that LDS use the term anti-mormon to apply to those who are absolutely immoral and lacking of the charity of Christ towards this Church and it's people and leaders. Anti-mormons to us are people who are MOST of the counter-cult industry who bear false witness about us in almost every issue and/or degrade us in almost every issue. These people are all through the net, all through your's and other like kind books. You've been corrupted and decieved towards doing evil by the evil one and you don't care. That's the problem.The Church of the Devil is the church anti-mormonism is a part of..... It's that spiritual church of darkness and evil. Your particular Church you worship at is not..... for it seeks after and strives for the light I'm guessing in most cases. The Light is of Christ. Anti-mormonism and anti-mormons have not the Light in them in this evil fruit they have created and promote. It is a Church within your Church, a false Church. . . . And to be really clear about it..... Owen and Mosser DO NOT APPEAR TO BE A PART OF THAT CHURCH OF THE DEVIL. But you do.....Being apparently a good Christian in general does not purify you from this particular wicked fruit you embrace. For it does GREAT evil in the souls and minds of men.

Enlightening -- copied and filed. Thank you.

Now, in response, I find it hard to accept what you're saying as accurate, given the following statements I've publicly made, publicly defended, and as a result, have suffered persecution for not parroting the standard cult-hunter lines:

"I have sought to heed the wise words of your current prophet (c. 2004), Gordon B. Hinckley: 'We must work harder to build mutual respect, an attitude of forbearance, with tolerance for another regardless of the doctrines and philosophies which we may espouse. Concerning these you and I may disagree. But we can do so with respect and civility.'"

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 18

"[M]y sincere hope is that all of us will be able to live up to the admirable sentiments expressed in 2001 by Mormon apostle M. Russell Ballard. . . . . 'sometimes we will have to agree to disagree with you, but we can do so without being disagreeable.'"

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 18

"The key to successful and peaceful interaction, as [Neal Maxwell] rightly observed, is good will."

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 19

"Evangelicals can no longer view each other as foes. Neither group can afford to maintain animosity for the other."

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 19

"

t cannot be denied that this same Joseph Smith somehow produced a quitr remarkable book, the Book of Mormon--which in many ways not only points to Jesus Christ, but also exhorts the world to live righteously before God.

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 49

"Mormonism preaches a personal God who knows our needs, hears our prayers, and guides our steps. Mormons also see God as 'merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness.' The LDS manual

Gospel Principles

adds: 'God is perfect. . . .He is a God of love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment.' Obviously, Mormons share with evangelicals a number of key observations about God."

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 108

"Mormons believe that Christ was fully divine and look exclusively to him as the one in whom forgiveness for sins may be obtained. Mormons also believe that good works done in Jesus' name are only possible by God's grace, which equips, strengthens, and empowers them for such acts."

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 178

"Having made all of the above clear, it would be negligent of me not to mention that a legitimate argument can indeed be made for calling Latter-day Saints 'Christian'"

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 265

"Are we trying to minister to Mormons with integrity? Are we attempting to truly evangelize (spread the good news) to them. . . .or just anger them, hurt them, or bully them theologically? Are we really trying to listen to what a Mormon might be saying--to the point of even learning something from that person? . . . Do we see every Mormon as an individual person . . . or have they all just become a part of the impersonal enemy we so easily label 'The Mormons'?"

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 280

"Mormons and mainstream Christians will certainly remain divided for some time -- perhaps always -- over many important issues. But this does not mean we need to aggravate the situation by mocking each other, demeaning each other's beliefs, or being unnecessarily antagonistic while interacting with each other"

-- Richard Abanes,

Inside Today's Mormonism

, p. 280

"[Daniel] Peterson, whom I consider a personal friend, has also given the following advice, which, I believe, demonstrates a keen understanding of the current state of LDS-evangelical interaction and how we need to take it to the next level:

[some] take this as just, 'it's a competition you can score points.' You know, you can 'win on this' -- gratify your ego by defeating somebody on that point or something. That's not what it's really about. Resist that temptation. These issues are vastly important. Intrinsically. Not just because you're on one team or another.

-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 280

"It also must be admitted that both Mormons and evangelicals have been far to ready to attribute the worst of motives to each other. This, too, must end, as several LDS leaders have recently stated [quotes by Mormons M. Russell Ballard, Marvin J. Ashton]. . . .Is there any reason why both Mormons and evangelicals cannot live up to such wise counsel?"

-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 281

I came hear in an attempt to practice what I preach. I was attacked without hesitation by many of you, and set upon like a piece of raw meat among hungry wolves before I had a chance to say much of anything constructive. And I, in my fleshly weakness, responded much too frequently with needlessly sharp words and sarcasm (almost as an involuntary defense mechanism).

Clearly, I have a long way to go, need much growth and change, and still must learn/develop in order to live up to my own desires and knowledge as stated in the above quotes: "the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Matthew 26:41). As I posted in this very thread, in POST #21:

There is nothing "all of a sudden" about this post. I grew weary/grieved over the absolute mean-spirited nastiness and hate rhetoric, as well as my own inability to not respond in the flesh (using sarcasm, mostly) to being slapped around by all of you. I'm stopping it with this post. No more. It's unfruitful, unbiblical, ungodly, and unChristian. And for my role in accelerating it all through sarcasm and biting wit, I apologize all around. Let's move on.

This thread was another attempt. But it seems to have still failed as well. The die has been set. I cannot, it seems, be heard now as a result of ONUG. So be it. At this point, however, I won't make the same mistake twice by engaging in a way that might displease my Lord. Instead, I wish you well.

Peace-out,

RA

[LifeOnaPlate]

Where are all the great quotes from ONUG?

[Obiwan]

Dear Richard.....

I must tell you that I truly do appreciate your sincere attempt in your own way of finding the Light in what you do or have done, to be charitable toward LDS and the Church etc. However, there is something you do not understand..... that may help you too understand your difficulty in this issue with us etc.

You are I'm sure familiar with that recent "Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith" video right put out by the counter cultists last year?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Truth_DVD

It seems to no longer be on the web so you can watch it, their website appears to be gone.

My point however is that that video was very well done, you COULD really tell how much they "cared" about us LDS, even loved us, very sincere in it. However, I felt nothing except evil and sick to my stomach while watching it. Why....? Because all they did was LIE the entire time through their video in the things they said about our religion, it's leaders etc.

You see, what "kind" and "good" seeming anti-mormons are like, is like the sweet old man that seems to do no wrong to children, he loves them, is kind to them, etc. but then [edited by mods]

It is reasonable to have disagreements about truth, but what is not reasonable is people who lie about other's and think it's truth and good.

There is a reason why God gave "though shalt not bear false witness" as one of the commandments. It is because of the seriousness of it.

Christ also gave the example of how other believers who are not "with you" are to be treated (as well as the seriousness of it) in Mark 9 & Luke 9.

I know you try to be good to us, to spend time with us in trying to understand us.... However, your entire persona has been corrupted by this religion within your religion that is the "counter-cult" ministry's. Your whole thinking has been shaped by this malarkey toward other believers "not with you", that you and other's like you have crossed a line, a line beyond objective and respectful comparison, too promoting the lies of the deceiver himself concerning this Faith.

Only when you repent, seeking to do no more evil, asking forgiveness for the errors of you ways, can we then start to have some actual respect for you. But, your insistence that you have done no wrong by your books, that it's normal and respectable scholarship by Christians, well, I see arrogance and a lack of humility, and therefore undeserving of true respect, even if we may show a modicum of it in our daily interactions with you.[edited by mods]

watch your language and inferences please~hermes

[Bernard Gui]

This thread was another attempt. But it seems to have still failed as well. The die has been set. I cannot, it seems, be heard now as a result of ONUG. So be it. At this point, however, I won't make the same mistake twice by engaging in a way that might displease my Lord. Instead, I wish you well.

Yes, the well has been poisoned by ONUG. How many people do you suppose have

a false impression of Mormonism and Mormons as a result of reading your deplorable book?

When I was an Explorer Scout we had a conclave at Kirkland AFB in

Albuquerque. We were quartered in barracks. We discovered our down

pillows were excellent for pillow fights. Great fun until one of them split

open and spewed feathers everywhere. We spent the rest of the night

in a futile effort to pick them all up.

A sincere apology for ONUG would go a long way in gaining the mutual respect you appear to want.

Retrieving all the feathers is another thing.

Bernard

[Heartleap]

Thank you. I also know of someone by the name of Joseph Smith who has published a book called the Book of Mormon. Here is a quote from its Title Page:

I agree 100% with the above statement.

zerinus

If you agree 100% to the above statement, how come the LDS worship the Father and not Christ if he is the Eternal God?

Heartleap...

[LeSellers]

how come the LDS worship the Father and not Christ if he is the Eternal God?

CFR that we do not worship Christ.

Lehi