All Spirit Is (subatomic)matter, It Is More Fine Or Pure...

[Honorentheos]

I think the spirit is more than just energy, more than just information - I think the spirit contains energy and information, but is something more than that...

Do you have to be self-aware to be conscious? I thought the more conscientious person was one who was other-aware rather than self-aware Perhaps we are most alive when we are asleep...

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

(New Testament | Matthew 10:39)

sleep is probably the easiest way to "lose" ourself although it is not losing ourself for the right sake...

the creative potential depends not on being aware of our self, but in our interactions with what is around us... Like light - you don't actually see light, what you see is it's interactions with what is around it... If it does not interact with anything, it is not "light" it is darkness...

â??And, strange to say, we can only appreciate light when it impinges upon some piece of matter and thence is deflected into the eyes. When we see a lighthouse or searchlight beam tracking its way across space, it is not the beam that we observe, but the dust particles which are illuminated by it.â?

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

(New Testament | Matthew 6:22 - 23)

let your light shine and all that! Light is another fun topic if anyone wants to start one up

As with light, we have to interact, become "united" with what is around us in order to be seen... by their fruits ye shall know them... don't lie, don't steal, et. etc... it is all about interactions isn't it?

self-aware vs. other-aware... have you heard of "emergence"?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=sacred-science

You know La-Place Demon / reductionism / determinism â?? how scientists would like to rationalize away our free agency, saying that everything can be â??reducedâ? to itâ??s parts, laws determine the motion of everything, if there was a demon who for one second knew all the velocities, forces etc. at play in the universe, he could calculate the past and future of everything, hence deterministic etcâ?¦ Strong-emergence destroys this. It states that through interactions, the whole is greater than the sum of itâ??s parts. It breaks free of the conservation principles of thermodynamics. Example:

1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird = 4 birds (whole can be reduced to sum of parts)

emergence:

1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird = 4 birds + an ordered flock + communication + babies + social structures + fights + societies etc. etc.

you can't predict what interactions will prodice by just looking at one bird all on it's own (just looking at the part). When you have structures that cannot be traced back to their parts, you have a whole that is greater than it's parts.

In short, there is infinite creative potential through interactions. If you want infinite creative potential you have to work together, become united, see beyond yourself and all that..

Sorry, that was really off-topic.

yes yes, all speculation of course. It is just nice to see some scientists admitting that there is more than the eye can see...

Interesting thoughts, changed. And I do not disagree with the background information you have provided. I think, though, that you are heading to a "unity" of sorts - a sort of event horizon perhaps beyond which a "self" can not exist. At what point does this energy/matter/relationship that has advanced beyond physical death enforce a boundary that says, "Here on in is "I", from here on out, "other"?

You become the most "other" aware once there is no boundary. When the two are one, you may have developed perfect love.

[Honorentheos]

Were speaking about the God who created the Cosmos, the God who created Matter. Is not that larger than what you are putting forth? Lots of things I will not be able to wrap my brain around here. For me God is large enough to create something from Nothing, as God is also the Creator of nothing. All things have been created by Him. My opinion anyway for what its worth. To say that the God of Creation itself cannot create from nothing limits His Greatness. Remember He has always been, He is the Alpha and the Omega. I love His name "I AM"

"If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.

Scripture bears witness to faith in creation "out of nothing" as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:

I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being." CCC

Richard,

I appreciate your thoughts. As an agnostic, I feel there is always room for the notion of God within the consideration of personal, spiritual matters. I do not tend to place God in as an answer to a question that has not been answered perhaps because I can not imagine that anything worthy of being worshiped as God should be considered "separate - with individual identity" from the greater wonder that this whole of existance really is. And should we?

Why? Because an "I" said so? What can "I"'s really know about God if this is the case?

And if it is not the case regarding the nature of God, this thread is false. But so far, no real proof has been offered to show it is false.

So back to the big wonder of it all...

[John Larsen]

I didn't postulate anything . . . you did.

I am flattered that you think that I postulated all of the stuff--really I am. There are 100s of 1000s of scientists that study brain activity. I am not postulating anything crazy to suggest that thought is the product of the brain. It amazes me, from time to time the things that I must defend on this board.

You said: "Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain."

You also said: "Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way."

So, as you stated, you have the burden of proof to show that once neurological activity in the brain ceases, once the brain stops functioning due death, the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

How do you propose to prove this?

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

The brain has been studied from an amazing number of positions. It is studied based on its physiology, its output and the structure of thought. We measure brain output using Positron Emission Tomography (PET) scans, Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT) scans, Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) scans, and Electroencephalography (EEG) scans. The science behind these are used in emergency rooms and hospitals all over the world every day. They are used to predict, prevent and to some degree heal traumatic brain injury (TBI) and neurological problems. Neurological science has made amazing strides and is a discipline that produces 10,000 of pages of research and hosts 100s of conferences around the world. All of this progress and science is based on the idea that thought comes from the brain. If that were not the case, much of the fundamental assumptions of the discipline would not work. But we know that is not true. Indeed, when religious people have problems with their brains, they typically go to those school in brain science for assistance.

But it goes beyond that. There have been whole fields of study in TBI that have mapped parts of the brain. We have not only determined that thought comes from the brain, we are getting better at predicting exactly what parts of the brain are responsible for what. In fact, with a scalpel and some skill you can significant modify a person's personality. Strokes can take out parts of personality and leave other parts in tact. All of this research has reaffirmed on key fact, thought arises from the brain. I could go on and on.

All told, millions of hours have been spent studying the brain and all of this research points to one thing, though is the product of the brain. All of this output that we can measure and quantify ceases upon death. No one has shown any thought activity to continue after the brain activity ceases.

Any definition that you use to define a person or the self ceases to have any relevance for the individual once the person is dead. Similarly, the software program that I am running right now is a product of my computer. If I break my computer with a hammer, it is nonsense to argue that this program goes on to exist in an real way. But that is what you are doing. My proof is simple, the program arises from the computer. Ergo, no computer no program. Thought arises from the brain, no brain no thought.

Your turn. Please show how consciousness survives death.

[changed]

. no brain no thought.

no radio, no music... but then the music was not really coming from the radio...

Back to the radio example. If you have a radio, study it, fix it, break it, how much does the radio tell you about the tower transmitting the waves the radio receives? The radio gets broken, the signal gets mixed with static etcâ?¦ and from this you presume to know what is going on with the tower that is a hundred miles away? Sure, you might be able to figure out how to switch the radio between different signals, Amplitude modulated vs. frequency modulated, where the music stations come out, where the political talk shows areâ?¦

25 Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

(New Testament | Matthew 6:25)

The body is just a tool for the spirit, like the radio is a tool for the tower. A study of the radio does not tell you much about the towerâ?¦

Here is an interesting site

http://www.brainsync.com/

clinically proven and doctor recommendedâ?¦

"At Brain Sync we believe that thoughts are things â?? that the quality and content of your thoughts and feelings impact everything in your life. We agree with the worldâ??s leading authorities on the new vision of reality: that mind creates matter."...

I don't think they are joking around about these ideas...they are learning how to send waves into the brainâ?¦. Catch that? Not just brain waves coming out, sending waves in, and altering consciousness by what is sent inâ?¦ so the mind is capable not only of emitting waves, but of receiving them from other sources. The brain sends and receives information... like a radio.

[John Larsen]

no radio, no music... but then the music was not really coming from the radio...

Back to the radio example. If you have a radio, study it, fix it, break it, how much does the radio tell you about the tower transmitting the waves the radio receives? The radio gets broken, the signal gets mixed with static etcâ?¦ and from this you presume to know what is going on with the tower that is a hundred miles away? Sure, you might be able to figure out how to switch the radio between different signals, Amplitude modulated vs. frequency modulated, where the music stations come out, where the political talk shows areâ?¦

25 Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

(New Testament | Matthew 6:25)

The body is just a tool for the spirit, like the radio is a tool for the tower. A study of the radio does not tell you much about the towerâ?¦

Here is an interesting site

http://www.brainsync.com/

clinically proven and doctor recommendedâ?¦

"At Brain Sync we believe that thoughts are things â?? that the quality and content of your thoughts and feelings impact everything in your life. We agree with the worldâ??s leading authorities on the new vision of reality: that mind creates matter."...

I don't think they are joking around about these ideas...they are learning how to send waves into the brainâ?¦. Catch that? Not just brain waves coming out, sending waves in, and altering consciousness by what is sent inâ?¦ so the mind is capable not only of emitting waves, but of receiving them from other sources. The brain sends and receives information... like a radio.

If you open up a radio, it is not difficult to see that it is a device designed to receive radio waves and broadcast them as sound waves. All of the internals of the radio support this function, from the antenna down to the tuner. If you had more than one radio, you could use them to triangulate the position of the tower.

We have study the human body from top to bottom. There are no organs that receive signals via waves. That is nonsense.

[Honorentheos]

In changed's defense, John, I do think that when one combines quantum mechanics with neuroscience we end up with a lot more questions than answers.

But I don't disagree with you - the brain appears to be the very thing that generates thoughts and the mind-body problem has never seemed that well articulated to me to really be a problem. The emergence principal that changed cited is the reason I see the brain being the solution to the mind body problem, not it's great defender.

I like your radio receiver-transmitter analogy. I think a person could take it further in showing that, though the waves that are translated or produced by this instrument exist outside of the radio, the radio is required to give them recognizable form to human beings. And this is where I think that changed needs to reconsider the road he is heading down.

The notion that we will exist after this life in some improved form of our current physical form is very 19th century -Newtonian at it's core.

I see modern physics leaning more to the esoteric religions in that we can not seem to be able to comprehend what a post-mortal continuation of our being would be like without bringing in these old ideas. But the old ideas can not remain consistent with the actual information that is being conveyed. Energy does not have identity. If it did, it would be matter. We can measure energy, we can discribe charateristics of energy, but we do not distinguish between certain parts of energy. When you think we do, we are talking about it's effects on matter. Think electrons.

Why must thought = information? Meaning the energy wave patterns that we are discussing in relation to this thread? Once we start to move quantum mechanics into the theoretical world of string theory (as one possibility) we start to see the break down of matter and energy into one "thing". Is this the "finer matter", like JS speculated? Odd-dimensional string waves of Planck length vibrating to the music of the universe? I doubt the 19th century vision of JS had string theory in mind. Too many other, proved 20th century scientific theories were missed by his metaphysics for that to be likely.

I do think the door is open for the non-LDS / non-traditional christian form of this thread's main topic. I just posit that individual identity, as you know and are showing is tied to the brain-radio, is not possible within the context of this theory.

[changed]

Interesting thoughts, changed. And I do not disagree with the background information you have provided. I think, though, that you are heading to a "unity" of sorts - a sort of event horizon perhaps beyond which a "self" can not exist. At what point does this energy/matter/relationship that has advanced beyond physical death enforce a boundary that says, "Here on in is "I", from here on out, "other"?

You become the most "other" aware once there is no boundary. When the two are one, you may have developed perfect love.

Thank you honor-in-the-os (os - operating system?) I did not reply last night, but I was thinking about this topic... Does unity conflict with individual identity? boundaries, walls... if you don't mind reading... sorry for the long spew of words...

From Faith of my Fathers -

The USNA, an institution I both resented and admired, tried to bend my resilience to a cause greater than self-interest. I resisted its exertions, fearing its effect on my individuality. But as a prisoner of war, I learned that a shared purpose did not claim my identity. On the contrary, it enlarged my sense of myself.

Seems strange doesnâ??t it? That he would get a larger sense of himself, of his individuality in the army â?? the one place that seems like it takes away and crushes anything that has to do with individuality? Consider:

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:25)

Again, two contradictory terms. How can you find something by first losing it? By losing yourself, and becoming united with Christ you will find yourself? Don't you want to separate yourself from everything and everyone to be an individual?

An individual has to be separated from others, if you bring down what separate us, morph into one giant blob, don't you lose all that is individual? thinking about what these barriers really are and what they are really doing.

I think the barriers that separate us are all created by sin. Barriers are meant to hide things, and what else but sin is there to hide? Imagine yourself behind tall thick walls. These walls do two things. For one, they keep people from seeing who you are (which is why we erect the walls). They also however keep you from seeing others clearly. Afterall, we if we able to see others clearly we might have to face the fact that perhaps we are to blame for some things rather than them. We create some imagined version of them to cast our blame onto rather than having to face the honest version of who we areâ?¦ We also create some imagined version of who we really are to protect ourself from admitting any humiliating facts about ourselfâ?¦ These walls separate us, keep us in our own little individual bubble, we can justify the walls, justify not getting to close to people, by calling it a way to preserve individuality â?? but that would be a lie. The individuals created with walls are illusions, they are not real, they are imagined entities. The walls have to come down. With these walls, we cannot see ourself, we cannot see others, we cannot view what is reality.

In the NT the greek word for Repentance is Metanoia, Meta = change, noia = mind/consciousness/perception, change from darkness to light...

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness....

(New Testament | Luke 1:79)

It is only when we can repent, be humble enough to admit our shortcomings rather than trying to hide them, that the walls come down, and we can finally honestly see the individuals. Honestly see ourself, and honestly see others. Tearing down the walls between us reveals who each of us is as individuals. Walls, the things that separate us, walls do not create individuals, they hide it, distort it. The walls actually make us all look the same, you know, societies version of who we should all be, lipstick, designer jeans, putting on the front of being perfect - the walls try and make us all look the same, camouflage, blending in, looking the same as everything around you â?? this is a good way to hide. If we can repent, admit our mistakes, we no longer need to blend in or hide who we really are, this is when the real individual comes out.

Sorry, brevity is not my strong point, and once again that was way off topic, but that is a very interesting topic â?? unity/becoming one vs. preserving individuality.

21 ...be determined in one mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity;

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 1:21)

IMO - what unites us does not take our individuality from us. What tears down walls reveals who we really are.

[changed]

Oh, and I also ask how a notion of the resurrection can fit into all of this? or is it possible that the traditional understanding of the physicality of God or resurrected beings is in direct conflict with modern and current theoretical physics?

The union of spirit and body make a soul - not trying to take a body away from anyone, just that the body is a tool, a house, a temple for the spirit to reside in. Obviously some spirits have the ability to manipulate and control matter. we are here "learning how to use our body" AKA, our body is the first bit of matter we are learning how to manipulate. We watch star trek and think wouldn't it be cool if we could levitate objects like Luke - concentrate really hard on bringing that light-saver into our hand, with mental powers lift a ship out of the water? Perhaps we don't always realize it, but we are doing this sort of thing every day. With our mental powers, we are moving matter, we are moving our body around... The atoms in our body are the first bits of matter we are given to rule over.

Were speaking about the God who created the Cosmos, the God who created Matter. Is not that larger than what you are putting forth? Lots of things I will not be able to wrap my brain around here. For me God is large enough to create something from Nothing, as God is also the Creator of nothing. All things have been created by Him.

Did you read the pre-existence thread? Not all things were created by Him - thankfully. Part of us is independant, meaning we have free (independent) will... thankfully God is perfect and DID NOT create evil.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...l=pre-existence

I would love to bring up thie above old thread, please comment on it, bump it up again. This is a very important subject. Who God is, who we are, what is being refined, etc. etc.

My opinion anyway for what its worth. To say that the God of Creation itself cannot create from nothing limits His Greatness.

Making him the creator of evil and imperfect creatures with no free will would limit His greatness... (free will cannot be created, part of it has to be independent, untraceable to the creator, or it is not a separate will) The most powerful Being is not one who controls robots that He has made... the most powerful being is one in who can mold independent eternal beings with free will.

[Richard]

Richard,

I appreciate your thoughts. As an agnostic, I feel there is always room for the notion of God within the consideration of personal, spiritual matters. I do not tend to place God in as an answer to a question that has not been answered perhaps because I can not imagine that anything worthy of being worshiped as God should be considered "separate - with individual identity" from the greater wonder that this whole of existance really is. And should we?

Why? Because an "I" said so? What can "I"'s really know about God if this is the case?

And if it is not the case regarding the nature of God, this thread is false. But so far, no real proof has been offered to show it is false.

So back to the big wonder of it all...

"So back to the big wonder of it all."

I love that. As a Catholic Christian many things I cannot answer. In our faith we call it mystery,we have been mocked for that, like its a cop out. I am more than comfortable in the things I do not yet know. I do have a great sense of the one Spirit in me and in those I walk with. It is a deep spirituality for many. We do believe that out of nothing, by God we came to be, in this a wonderful gift. We do beleive in un selfish love, a love without transaction. Can we live like that? No we can't, all we can do is get close to God, this spirit that is love itself. If we think we can live it without transaction we then have further to grow. Love without transaction is a goal, the goal being God. I must admit that the closer I get to Him the less I really know. This is very catholic. May faith is found in the words of Jesus. the ones I can read and the ones that I hear when I pray. He is profound in all that He has taught. He is the only one I have read that knows about love without transaction. In my head and in my heart I know He is the One From God. He also being God.

I am good with those things, I have found peace in those things.

God Bless

Rich

www.utahmission.com

[changed]

We have study the human body from top to bottom. There are no organs that receive signals via waves. That is nonsense.

so... ears don't receives signals via waves? Eyes do not receive signals via waves? LOL! The human body is an electrochemical system. It receives signals via waves.

[USU78]

Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain. The concept of self is a byproduct of consciousness. Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

If this is necessarily the case, then you'll have no problem demonstrating it in a manner that can be tested and, just possibly, falsified by others.

[changed]

"So back to the big wonder of it all."

I love that. As a Catholic Christian many things I cannot answer. In our faith we call it mystery

28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets...

(Old Testament | Daniel 2:28)

11 it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven...

(New Testament | Matthew 13:11)

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that aseeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:7 - 8 )

read ya'll later. Thanks for all the comments everyone! I'm really enjoying reading / tossing ideas around. Thanks!

[Richard]

28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets...

(Old Testament | Daniel 2:28)

11 it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven...

(New Testament | Matthew 13:11)

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that aseeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:7 - 8 )

read ya'll later. Thanks for all the comments everyone! I'm really enjoying reading / tossing ideas around. Thanks!

Canâ??t let you go on that note. I have knocked, I have received, I have Christ in my life. The Scriptures you place here come from the Judeo Christian Tradition. It is the book given to me as a great gift. I do not look at God as if He keeps secrets, and then only reveals them to those most worthy. When a Catholic speaks about â??Mysteryâ? it is not something that we need to figure out, like one with a weegee board trying to receive all the answers to all of life's questions.

Mystery is a truth we live, we as a community share in it. Not something that we have to solve, to have everything lined out for us, rather something we enter into with joy. Love can not be put under a microscope, you simply enter into it.

What has been revealed to me is very personal; I am with others who simply have the same revelations but at different points in time on the journey. We accept what we have been taught by others as truth, and we are free to challenge this truth always. We do not have it all figured out, but what we are immersed in, the teachings of Christ, His Passion, death and resurrection keeps us for ever grateful and always in awe and wonder. It is a very deep faith, once you think you got it all figured out it just goes deeper. Love is simple, yet it is also immense.

[changed]

I agree Richard, well said. The more you know, the more you know you don't know... maturity is a process of going from "ignorant certainty" to "intelligent confusion" as Kroll would say. I hope that there is no upper bound to the discoveries we can make, no end to glory, no end to love... heaven would not h\be heaven if there was a point where there was nothing left to discover!

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:9)

It has not all been revealed, the journey continues.

We should not however be content to become stagnant, stop asking asking questions with a defeatest attitude that we can never reach answers to everything... eternal progression, continue to learn / grow / ask / recieve - death is stagnant... May we not be satisfied with the spiritual experiences we have had up to this point, and seek to continually recieve more.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, as Christians we can agree that death is not the end, that part of us lives on after our body has returned to the dust. The part of us that lives on - is not just a philosophical concept, or memories in the hearts of others. Our spirit is an actual entity, it is a something not a nothing. As it is an actual entity, if we have faith that it is, what is wrong with looking for it and trying to understand the nature of it more precisely?

SPIRIT. See also Death, Physical; Man, Men; Resurrection; Soul

That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living thingsâ??mankind, animals, and plantsâ??were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4â??5; Moses 3:4â??7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15â??16; D&C 77:2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7).

Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12:9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2:7; D&C 88:15; Moses 3:7, 9, 19; Abr. 5:7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2:26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11:45; D&C 138:16â??17).

A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, Rom. 8:16. Glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, 1 Cor. 6:20. This body is the body of my spirit, Ether 3:16. Man is spirit, D&C 93:33. Christ ministered to the righteous spirits in paradise, D&C 138:28â??30 (1 Pet. 3:18â??19). Ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, Moses 6:59. He stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3:23.

(Guide to the Scriptures | S Spirit.:Entry)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...UNA_en%26sa%3DN

sorry, can't upload the images... don't you ponder what we are being connected to when you see images like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DTI-sagittal-fibers.jpg

[Richard]

I feel as if you say something I have to disagree, I really hate doing thisâ?¦sorry..but I must in all sincerety and to be honest. Let me just go through what you wrote and comment as I go.

I agree Richard, well said. The more you know, the more you know you don't know... maturity is a process of going from "ignorant certainty" to "intelligent confusion" as Kroll would say.

Ignorant certainty refers the term block head. Its hard once you have them all in place and so neat to start moving them around because someone tells you your thinking is wrong. We all hate that. I have gone from yes, ignorant certainty to what I personal know in Christ. I am not confused in any way shape our form as to my Catholic Faith, Her beliefs, and what it means to be a Catholic, along with the outcome of my choice. I am very secure in all that the Church teaches and all of it can easily be searched out.

I hope that there is no upper bound to the discoveries we can make.

I do believe in an end to what we can discover, once we are with God all will have been discovered. At the same time I see this as eternal joy, where we will be complete in Him and that will be enough. What exactly He has in store for us I could not imagine. If I did right now I am sure I would just explode into a billion pieces.

I have to insert God in your next sentence.

, no end to GODS glory, no end to GODS love... heaven would not h\be heaven if there was a point where there was nothing left to discover!

Yes that would be hard for me as well. I have often thought that heaven would be boring if their was nothing left to discover. But Gods thoughts are above our thoughts, we are from the Earth, He is from above. Then I had an epiphany. Can one discover God and then still have a desire to discover more than Him? I would say absolutly not. Think about the fall in the garden, think about sin and death.

CCC: 1023: Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

It has not all been revealed, the journey continues

Of course because I am Catholic you know and I know that we are talking about two entirely different belief systems, about things revealed. But it is good to converse with you a Child of God just as I.

We should not however be content to become stagnant, stop asking asking questions with a defeatest attitude that we can never reach answers to everything... (Adam and Eve, the fall) eternal progression, continue to learn / grow / ask / recieve - death is stagnant... May we not be satisfied with the spiritual experiences we have had up to this point, and seek to continually recieve more.

In everything I do I give all praise and Glory to God, what I have been given is never stagnant. I am not searching for answers to everything, as to my faith I just live in it, submersed into it. It flows daily. I am always excited, mostly in helping others. Once again my progression is to be with my creator forever, never forgetting my place in creation. Never wanting more than what God has already given me. A life of Joy in good times as well as bad. Holding both the Crucifixion and resurrection together in my life. Accepting both in this life, and looking to my reward in heaven. That would be being with Jesus forever.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, as Christians we can agree that death is not the end, that part of us lives on after our body has returned to the dust. The part of us that lives on - is not just a philosophical concept, or memories in the hearts of others. Our spirit is an actual entity, it is a something not a nothing.

First I have to say with humility and yes love for you in my heart, your faith is not the Christian faith. It is contrary as Christians do not beleive in the same Godhead as Mormons. One is an exalted man, the Other Creation itself. But Of course we are all something very special , God made us to love us..

As it is an actual entity, if we have faith that it is, what is wrong with looking for it and trying to understand the nature of it more precisely?

Pray for wisdom from God, ask Him alone to help you with these things, its all from Him and its all His. Donâ??t try to take it or force it, or use it for anything else but to love others. He freely gives this wisdom when asks with an empty heart. But be prepared: He will ask you to do things you do not wish to do. It may involve some pain.

I like all of that which you wrote here. I believe you understand more about Gods loving nature the more you pray, the more you can listen in prayer, by asking God for help every morning you get up. The nature of what you are searching for is Gods One Spirit, it is love. You understand that you are not it, yet it has been gifted to you. When we listen to it, it will always tell us what to do. We may choose not to listen and God understands, he knows we are human. If we did we would give up our egos, we would give all that we have to others, we would love others until it hurts so bad. Good example for me is Mother Teresa. God asked her to go into some of the darkest places a soul could ever go. If we did ask for all of His wisdom we may be left with absolutely nothing in the worlds eyss, we would be mocked and laughed at for being so stupid as to end up on a cross. Although we would become a Saint, we would still look upon it as nothing important. Because God would become all that is important, we would then be able to do His will perfectly. But we simply canâ??t! Why? We are not God. Jesus did this for us.

God Bless

Rich

www.utahmission.com

[Bee Eff]

As to the thread title, because I didn't feel like reading through the whole OP, and did not read it in its entirety

I only believe in the existence that is. Immaterial, or not being material in some form, is not existing. I do not believe in a separate "spirit world" as it were. I believe they simply exist in a form that we cannot perceive. I believe that the spirit is some subatomic matter, or at the least some type of matter that is not visible through the means we have to view it.

[Cold Steel]

Some interesting concepts here.

One might view a human being, or any other sophisticated neural being, as being only active with that neural energy coursing through our systems. When interrupted, yes, that information could vanish just as it does when a computer is interrupted of electrical power. Unless memory is written to some sort of device, it just ceases to exist when the power is interrupted.

Anyone who's ever owned a computer knows this is the case. The only thing that allows them to reboot is storage. But each time you crank a computer up, it must start from scratch with the CMOS. It must again learn what peripherals are attached and, only then, is it able to pick up where it left off. Alas, any data in virtual memory will be as lost as if it never existed.

I don't believe this is true; I'm merely saying it's a possibility. If I were an atheist, this is how I would answer. But another problem, and one that's not really addressed in quantum theory (as far as I know) is entropy. Everywhere we look in the universe, systems are being born and dying out. Everything is in the midst of this process and there is no evidence I'm aware of that anything is eternal. Current theory holds that everything in the universe will eventually "die" and then perhaps respawn. But who knows.

These are fascinating topics for discussion, but if time can be manipulated, then eternity becomes moot. If we could live twenty lifetimes, or more, in a fraction of a second, then with billions of years and limitless space, who knows? We're clearly out of our leagues.

[Honorentheos]

Thank you honor-in-the-os (os - operating system?)

My screen name is actually two words: Honor and Entheos. It's more of a personal creed to live by than a name. A verb rather than a noun, I guess. I wish I could be the noun that it were modeled on, but at best I just try.

Does unity conflict with individual identity? boundaries, walls... if you don't mind reading... sorry for the long spew of words...

...IMO - what unites us does not take our individuality from us. What tears down walls reveals who we really are.

I really enjoyed your thoughts and agree with what you are saying, changed. I just think it only applies to the material here-and-now.

Perhaps I should ask you what an identity is and where it comes from? And I mean thinking this through. Consider your own identity, or how you apply identity to others. Take me for example. I think that within this message board there are things that consititute my identity. I'd also bet that my self-identity would not know itself if it were introduced to the identity that you or any others here would assign to the name, Honorentheos. It would be a room full of strangers, though they are all refering to the same person.

Anyway, identity - where does it come from?

[Honorentheos]

...Did you read the pre-existence thread? Not all things were created by Him - thankfully. Part of us is independant, meaning we have free (independent) will... thankfully God is perfect and DID NOT create evil.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...l=pre-existence

I would love to bring up thie above old thread, please comment on it, bump it up again. This is a very important subject. Who God is, who we are, what is being refined, etc. etc.

I was taking part in one a while back but there were a couple of them going on at the same time. I couldn't get to this one through the link, so if you would like, perhaps you could bump it?

I find the topic interesting and problematic as well. To quickly summarize my thoughts from that thread - How can an intelligence have a pre-existing will that was not created and still have agency? In other words, if God did not create it, but each intelligence has varying degrees of either inate evil or is drawn to evil more than others, can God be still be just? Or does the plan of salvation begin to look like a spiritual version of "survival of the fittest"?

[Honorentheos]

If this is necessarily the case, then you'll have no problem demonstrating it in a manner that can be tested and, just possibly, falsified by others.

Again, split brain patients. Or as John pointed out, the research around brain trauma victims shows that personality and self-identity is certainly tied to the material brain.

[Honorentheos]

As to the thread title, because I didn't feel like reading through the whole OP, and did not read it in its entirety

I only believe in the existence that is...I believe that the spirit is some subatomic matter, or at the least some type of matter that is not visible through the means we have to view it.

A bold statement, Bee Eff! I am not sure that a person can claim to believe only in the existence that is, then believe in spiritual matter without having a knowledge of it that transcends the usual means of decerning spiritual "truths". But...

[Honorentheos]

But another problem, and one that's not really addressed in quantum theory (as far as I know) is entropy. Everywhere we look in the universe, systems are being born and dying out. Everything is in the midst of this process and there is no evidence I'm aware of that anything is eternal. Current theory holds that everything in the universe will eventually "die" and then perhaps respawn. But who knows.

Perhaps we should consider what entropy is. Does everything die when all of the universe has reach a state of equalibrium? or has it all become one big cosmic soup without chunks in it?

Not a fan of soup as a meal...not very satisfying. But it has it's place in the courses.

[Zemah]

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. [Doctrine and Covenants Section 131:7 - 8]

This passage caught my attention early on in my conversion to the LDS Church; having felt the pure matter of the Lord pass through me in confirmation of the realization of my sinfulness, the words helped me to come to believe in prophets and in Joseph Smithâ??s calling specifically because it matched my own experiences when my eyes were made pure unto God.

I wrote much in those days before being baptized as the Spirit of the Lord acted upon me, but I wonâ??t bore you with the transcripts. Today I can better speak on these metaphysical matters utilizing the larger body of knowledge given me in the word of God through the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To believe in God is to believe in an invisible intelligence who can communicate to the human mind, heart, and soul. No Christian can deny that an intelligence exists outside of the human brain. The Holy Ghost is given to us as the testator of the Father and the Son.

To know of God, to have witness of His being or to have testimony of the Holy Ghost, is to know that our own intelligence can be preserved in the afterlife of spiritual succession. The brain is a chemical creation of finite duration connected to information gathering devices such as the eyes, nose, ears, and the sensation of taste and touch; but only faith can lead to the opening of the mind unto God in vision.

To believe in the resurrection of Christ as described in the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the visions and revelations of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price is to know that Godâ??s creation in man is complete only in Christ. Our glorified spirits will be united with our glorified bodies.

Proof that intelligence continues to exist after death is the promise in the word of God that we will be â??judged of our deedsâ?. The memory of our sins will condemn us unless we repent and turn to the Anointed One of Israel; His memory of our obedience in faith will save us through the grace of His Atonement.

To presume that the human brain is the highest form in creation is to say that His chemistry is limited to carbon structures sculpted in water and it denies the ethereal structures He is capable of building in the light of Christ; I know that He does live in eternal lightâ?¦He has shown me within my own mind.

Zemah

[Honorentheos]

...To believe in God is to believe in an invisible intelligence who can communicate to the human mind, heart, and soul. No Christian can deny that an intelligence exists outside of the human brain. The Holy Ghost is given to us as the testator of the Father and the Son.

To know of God, to have witness of His being or to have testimony of the Holy Ghost, is to know that our own intelligence can be preserved in the afterlife of spiritual succession. The brain is a chemical creation of finite duration connected to information gathering devices such as the eyes, nose, ears, and the sensation of taste and touch; but only faith can lead to the opening of the mind unto God in vision...

...or peyote. Or LSD I guess. I hear it helps enhance the religious experience, too.

LSD and the Religious Experience

I don't mean that as a bomb. It's just interesting to see the same rational for disbelief in the religious experience as a set formula known and operated by one belief system used to say, "but faith that transcends the senses proves God..." when one just before that recognized that the brain/mind is subject to chemical processes.

[Cold Steel]

Perhaps we should consider what entropy is. Does everything die when all of the universe has reach a state of equilibrium? or has it all become one big cosmic soup without chunks in it?

I don't think it dies. Even when energy burns out of a sun, the energy simply is converted from one form to another. Any given star may die, but we're to understand that God resides in a place or time that's eternal. Everything is before Him in one eternal round, we're told. True, we can't see the center of the universe and true, we can't see the center of the galaxies, but we do have evidence that they had a beginning.

The question is, are there other universes out there like ours, just further out? We used to think we were the only galaxy and then, wonder of wonders, we find we're floating in a virtual sea of them. We're only one little grain of sand on a seashore.

Nibley once referred to an ancient writer who stated that all systems exist in systems in the midst of like systems, or something to that effect. Solar systems make up a galaxy, galaxies make up a universe and universes make up...what? The same can be said of microsystems, with atoms and molecules. How far does it go down before there isn't a system in the midst of like systems?