All Spirit Is (subatomic)matter, It Is More Fine Or Pure...

[changed]

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:7 -

Even Atheists Go To (Insert Afterlife Here)

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/07...atheists-g.html

The brain could transmit, rather than produce, our mental life. Holt uses the metaphor of a radio that stops playing when damaged, though the signal is still broadcastâ?¦ Each of us, Leslie submits, is immortal because our life patterns are but an aspect of an â??existentially unifiedâ? cosmos that will persist after our death. The soul consists of information, not matter. And one of the deepest principles of quantum theory, called â??unitarity,â? forbids the disappearance of information.

http://www.rense.com/general32/sub.htm

1933 Lecture by Sir Oliver Lodge FRS

When we consider the question or Survival from the physical point of view we are up against the ancient problem of the connection between mind and body. The body is certainly made of matter, but matter is inert, it never does anything, it is completely controlled by the forces acting upon it, which forces exist in the empty space surrounding the atoms. Left to itself, matter merely continues in whatever state it was last made to accept. If it was spinning, it continues to spin with constant angular momentum. It has no power of changing its state or of stopping. If it was in a state of locomotion, that motion also continues unaltered. This is called the law of inertia, and to it all material atoms are absolutely obedient, whether they form part of an engine or of a clockwork mechanism or of an animated body. There is no exception. All matter is inert.

If any change is observed in atomic or material behaviour, it is a sign of some activity, some energy apart from matter, demonstrating its existence by acting upon matter, and causing some acceleration or retardation proportionate to the force exerted. This is called the second law of motion. Furthermore, every kind of energy known to us exists in the empty space between the atoms and exerts equal force upon the boundary atoms at either end of that space, so that every action is accompanied by an equal opposite reaction. This is called the third law of motion, or it might be called the law of energy. Energy only makes itself manifest by its effect on material bodies, but its main existence is in space. We have no sense organ for perceiving energy itself, our senses tell us of nothing but matter. We can see the results of energy as expended upon matter, but we have no direct apprehension of the energy. We are not acquainted with anything in the Universe save by its effect upon matter, and that is the origin of our tendency to philosophic materialism; we are liable to doubt whether things not apparent to the senses can have a real existence, though there is no justification for such a doubt. â?¦ read on

A few other random articles just from googlingâ?¦

Does Death Exist?

Maybe not, according to some quantum theorists

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Does-Death-Exist-16382.shtml

Survival Physics - MIT

http://www.worlditc.org/f_19_pearson_afterlife_quantum.htm

A rational Scientific Explanation For so-Called Psychic Phenomena

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background...pf_rational.pdf

For over 100 years we have had the experimental scientific proof that we all survive the death of our physical bodies, that the living mind separates from the dead brain. Refer to the repeatable experimentsâ?¦. Thanks to recent exciting discoveries in subatomic physics, the study of the invisible part of the universe, we now have the missing mathematical theory that matches the pioneering experimentsâ?¦ The reports of Jesus physically appearing in front of his disciples after he was killed are no longer to be considered as supernatural â?? above of beyond the laws of nature. â?¦ we know now exactly where the so-called next world is. It is all around us, the life force that drives our physical bodies carries on operating on another wavelength at what we call death. This part of the universe that is normally out of range of our five physical senses. .. We now know that was has been known as psychic phenomena and the religion of Spiritualism is in fact a branch of physics that should be called â??subatomic phenomenaâ?.

[Honorentheos]

I'm not sure how this will be dealt with on an LDS message board, but from an agnostic point of view, I have thought a bit about this concept. I've also had a number of discussions with non-LDS on this topic.

The thing I come back to is that, even thought the premise that information is continuous is theoretically sound, identity is not eternal. Nothing in science supports this, even individual human identity is transient and evolving when considered closely. After-life scenarios based on this premise become very esoteric because it becomes very difficult to imagine existing without a sense of personal identity that most western religions claim will also transcend death.

[changed]

The thing I come back to is that, even thought the premise that information is continuous is theoretically sound, identity is not eternal. Nothing in science supports this, even individual human identity is transient and evolving when considered closely. After-life scenarios based on this premise become very esoteric because it becomes very difficult to imagine existing without a sense of personal identity that most western religions claim will also transcend death.

Why do you say identity is not eternal? I don't think it is an ocean of "energy" out there where everything gets mixed together... It sounds like they are saying there are distinct quantized energy packets - separate individual entities... like a magnetic field or a beam of light - these things have form, take up a specific space, etc...

I think therefore I am... our id is not the matter, it is the info... IMO.

[John Larsen]

Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain. The concept of self is a byproduct of consciousness. Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

[Honorentheos]

Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain. The concept of self is a byproduct of consciousness. Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

Exactly.

[changed]

Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain. The concept of self is a byproduct of consciousness. Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

They are saying that our conscious is not an output of the brain, not a product - "The brain could transmit, rather than produce"... matter does not make energy, energy is a separate entity that comes and manipulates the inert matter...

"The physical Universe does not consist of matter alone. If it did, it would be absolutely inert, no change would ever occur. Experience shows us constant change, constant activity, and, when analysed, the source of this activity is always found in the field or space between the atoms. That is where the energy exists, that is where it is stored; and we can gradually realise that it is through interaction between the void and the material particles that every change or activity is accomplished. A field of force always exists in what we call vacuum or Ether, what the Ancients called 'void'; never does it exist in matter. Yet force is only made manifest by matter. It is only by observing the behaviour of material bodies that we can become aware of the existence of a field of force or of a seat of energy. Energy is constant in amount, but it takes various forms. The form with which we are best acquainted is the form of motion, and that is the only form ever associated with matter. All the other forms are hidden and make no impression upon us, save when they encounter material particles and thus display their existence. No one, for instance, could experience a magnetic field without a bit of iron to test it with. No one has any knowledge of the broadcast waves which now surround us unless he has a suitable detecting apparatus in the form of a wireless set and a telephone. And, strange to say, we can only appreciate light when it impinges upon some piece of matter and thence is deflected into the eyes. When we see a lighthouse or searchlight beam tracking its way across space, it is not the beam that we observe, but the dust particles which are illuminated by it. We can only see material objects : we have no sense for radiation itself, nor for an electric current, only for its activity in affecting various kinds of matter. These are only instances of a quite general law. "

[John Larsen]

They are saying that our conscious is not an output of the brain, not a product - "The brain could transmit, rather than produce"... matter does not make energy, energy is a separate entity that comes and manipulates the inert matter...

Won't a tinfoil hat help with that?

[changed]

Won't a tinfoil hat help with that?

LOL! I donâ??t think the hat would work though... unlike a radio (tower is miles away, waves travel through the air) our transmitting â??towerâ? is not miles off, our tower is inside our body (at least in this life) - short- range transmission - Now if you want to protect yourself against other foreign spirits coming in and messing around, perhaps the hat would work

[John Larsen]

LOL! I donâ??t think the hat would work though... unlike a radio (tower is miles away, waves travel through the air) our transmitting â??towerâ? is not miles off, our tower is inside our body (at least in this life) - short- range transmission - Now if you want to protect yourself against other foreign spirits coming in and messing around, perhaps the hat would work

[Honorentheos]

First, changed, I like the subject. It's kind of nice to see something philosophical and not political on the board. Nice job!

Second, YOU"RE TOTALLY WRONG!!!! Just kidding! Well, kind of.

I think one has to distinguish between what consciousness really is and the information that is being conserved in the form of energy. You're right - as far as we know, energy and matter are not created and are not destroyed within a system.

The trick is in recognizing that you, as a self-aware being, are different than the matter/energy that "you" are composed of an any sense of the words that we usually associated with the notion of "I".

Think about when you are a sleep. There are distinct periods during this time when you are not self-aware. Are you still there? If so, where did "you" go? Remove your body from this thought experiment and we'll see where we end up.

[thesometimesaint]

changed:

While certainly possible neither JS nor any of the subsequent prophet has explained what it means. So any conjecture on our part is just that.

[changed]

First, changed, I like the subject. It's kind of nice to see something philosophical and not political on the board. Nice job!

Second, YOU"RE TOTALLY WRONG!!!!

LOL!

Just kidding! Well, kind of.

I think one has to distinguish between what consciousness really is and the information that is being conserved in the form of energy. You're right - as far as we know, energy and matter are not created and are not destroyed within a system.

The trick is in recognizing that you, as a self-aware being, are different than the matter/energy that "you" are composed of an any sense of the words that we usually associated with the notion of "I".

Think about when you are a sleep. There are distinct periods during this time when you are not self-aware. Are you still there? If so, where did "you" go? Remove your body from this thought experiment and we'll see where we end up.

I think the spirit is more than just energy, more than just information - I think the spirit contains energy and information, but is something more than that...

Do you have to be self-aware to be conscious? I thought the more conscientious person was one who was other-aware rather than self-aware Perhaps we are most alive when we are asleep...

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

(New Testament | Matthew 10:39)

sleep is probably the easiest way to "lose" ourself although it is not losing ourself for the right sake...

the creative potential depends not on being aware of our self, but in our interactions with what is around us... Like light - you don't actually see light, what you see is it's interactions with what is around it... If it does not interact with anything, it is not "light" it is darkness...

â??And, strange to say, we can only appreciate light when it impinges upon some piece of matter and thence is deflected into the eyes. When we see a lighthouse or searchlight beam tracking its way across space, it is not the beam that we observe, but the dust particles which are illuminated by it.â?

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

(New Testament | Matthew 6:22 - 23)

let your light shine and all that! Light is another fun topic if anyone wants to start one up

As with light, we have to interact, become "united" with what is around us in order to be seen... by their fruits ye shall know them... don't lie, don't steal, et. etc... it is all about interactions isn't it?

self-aware vs. other-aware... have you heard of "emergence"?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=sacred-science

You know La-Place Demon / reductionism / determinism â?? how scientists would like to rationalize away our free agency, saying that everything can be â??reducedâ? to itâ??s parts, laws determine the motion of everything, if there was a demon who for one second knew all the velocities, forces etc. at play in the universe, he could calculate the past and future of everything, hence deterministic etcâ?¦ Strong-emergence destroys this. It states that through interactions, the whole is greater than the sum of itâ??s parts. It breaks free of the conservation principles of thermodynamics. Example:

1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird = 4 birds (whole can be reduced to sum of parts)

emergence:

1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird + 1 bird = 4 birds + an ordered flock + communication + babies + social structures + fights + societies etc. etc.

you can't predict what interactions will prodice by just looking at one bird all on it's own (just looking at the part). When you have structures that cannot be traced back to their parts, you have a whole that is greater than it's parts.

In short, there is infinite creative potential through interactions. If you want infinite creative potential you have to work together, become united, see beyond yourself and all that..

Sorry, that was really off-topic.

changed:

While certainly possible neither JS nor any of the subsequent prophet has explained what it means. So any conjecture on our part is just that.

yes yes, all speculation of course. It is just nice to see some scientists admitting that there is more than the eye can see...

[Caveman]

changed,

Yeah baby! You're into some good sauce now. Are you just starting to check this stuff out or are you playing the role of thought provoker?

Just curious...

[changed]

changed,

Yeah baby! You're into some good sauce now. Are you just starting to check this stuff out or are you playing the role of thought provoker?

Just curious...

I got my PhD while working with "The Particulate Science and Technology Group" at CSM although I was not into the quantum stuff, created MD / DEM sims, macro experiments with macro particles... sand as a new phase of matter (made of solid, flows like liquid, etc. etc...) I am a convert, just now starting to *mix* some ideas

[Lightbearer]

Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain. The concept of self is a byproduct of consciousness. Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

Wow I did not realize you had become omniscient!

I would be interested in seeing how you could prove such a ridiculous and unprovable idea.

[Caveman]

A converted scientist! I love it.

Though the science is old, as well as the book, you may enjoy some stuff by Widtsoe in working together the scientific and spiritual.

Check out "A Rational Theology" available online at the following link:

http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=etext_lib

If you like that I know of some other stuff you might be interested in.

[markwhannig]

Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain. The concept of self is a byproduct of consciousness. Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

How do you know?

Is the "Consciousness" that "is the output of neurological activity in the brain" the only type of consciousness in the universe? How did you conclude that it is or isn't?

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

[changed]

A converted scientist! I love it.

Though the science is old, as well as the book, you may enjoy some stuff by Widtsoe in working together the scientific and spiritual.

Check out "A Rational Theology" available online at the following link:

http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=etext_lib

If you like that I know of some other stuff you might be interested in.

Thanks for the link! Yes, please post all that you have found. I love to read - that is what Thanksgiving/Christmas is all about for me

There is no need for anyone to be scared of science, unless, you are scared it is not real. It is real, sciece looks at things that are real.

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:31)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:12)

One last quick commentâ?¦ thinking about how it is all real â?? our spirits are real entities that someday we will really be able to see, that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit â?? it is all real. We are getting close to the second coming, to the end of it all, we are coming to a time when all eyes will be opened, and we will all be able to actually see what is going on around usâ?¦

2â?¦they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

5 â?¦ the eyes of the blind shall be opened

(Old Testament | Isaiah 35:2 - 5)

there will come a time, in the not too distant future, when we will all be able to â??seeâ? what is really around us. Who knows what scientists are really looking at when they peer into the quantum world? Perhaps it is just a matter of recognizing what we are looking at.

[John Larsen]

Wow I did not realize you had become omniscient!

I would be interested in seeing how you could prove such a ridiculous and unprovable idea.

It has been done already many times over. Ask any neurologist. Here is the most simple proof, cut out somebody's brain and they stop thinking.

Now I would ask, what evidence do you have that thought does not come from the brain?

[John Larsen]

How do you know?

Is the "Consciousness" that "is the output of neurological activity in the brain" the only type of consciousness in the universe? How did you conclude that it is or isn't?

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

How do you know the universe isn't full of invisible pink unicorns? The answer is we don't. But if you are going to postulate the existence of something like that, the burden of proof is on you to show that it exists. It is not my duty to try and disprove any and all weird ideas thrown out there. Come on!

[Tsuzuki]

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:7 -

I like to see the spirit of a person/object/whatever as its quantum wave function.

[markwhannig]

How do you know the universe isn't full of invisible pink unicorns? The answer is we don't. But if you are going to postulate the existence of something like that, the burden of proof is on you to show that it exists. It is not my duty to try and disprove any and all weird ideas thrown out there. Come on!

I didn't postulate anything . . . you did.

You said: "Consciousness is the output of neurological activity in the brain."

You also said: "Once the brain stops functioning due to death, all conscious thought and thus the individual ceases to exist in any real way."

So, as you stated, you have the burden of proof to show that once neurological activity in the brain ceases, once the brain stops functioning due death, the individual ceases to exist in any real way.

How do you propose to prove this?

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

[Honorentheos]

I suggest a little study on split brain patients.

What makes a person an individual? What defines that individual in any real sense of the word? How do you define yourself? Are you the same all of the time? Awake? A sleep? As a 2 year old? As a 80 year old?

While we do not have proof of what happens after death, we can consider fairly clearly the relationship of the brain to a person's state of self-awareness, sense of self or self-identity, consciousness, and even religious preference. There is at least one case of a split brain patient who's one brain hemisphere believed in God and an after-life while the other was atheistic. What does that mean?

[Honorentheos]

Oh, and I also ask how a notion of the resurrection can fit into all of this? or is it possible that the traditional understanding of the physicality of God or resurrected beings is in direct conflict with modern and current theoretical physics?

[Richard]

Were speaking about the God who created the Cosmos, the God who created Matter. Is not that larger than what you are putting forth? Lots of things I will not be able to wrap my brain around here. For me God is large enough to create something from Nothing, as God is also the Creator of nothing. All things have been created by Him. My opinion anyway for what its worth. To say that the God of Creation itself cannot create from nothing limits His Greatness. Remember He has always been, He is the Alpha and the Omega. I love His name "I AM"

"If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.

Scripture bears witness to faith in creation "out of nothing" as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:

I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being." CCC