All Spirit Is (subatomic)matter, It Is More Fine Or Pure...

[Honorentheos]

Cold Steel,

Contemplating the universe like this always give me a sense of the sublime. In it's truest sense - a sense of something immense, terrifying, and well, sublime.

To imagine the universe as it expands outward and ponder, "What if there was something next door?" then ask, " but what made up the holes between the two?" you know, lots of odd thoughts that will likely never be answered.

On the other hand, entropy is not the death of everything. It is more like a universal communism - without the Politburo. Everything will have reach a state of equilibrium. And given how empty and cold the universe seems to be on average, it will probably not be good soup either.

[Bee Eff]

A bold statement, Bee Eff! I am not sure that a person can claim to believe only in the existence that is, then believe in spiritual matter without having a knowledge of it that transcends the usual means of decerning spiritual "truths". But...

Not quite clear on what you meant with the bolded. But, if the following fits what you are saying, run with it:

I believe that given enough time science would come to the conclusion that the priesthood is the eternal power and authority of God. That through the priesthood God created and governs the heavens and the earth. That through this power He redeems and exalts His children, bringing to pass "the immortality and eternal life of man". (Priesthood)

And everything else as well. The problem is that by that time we would probably have killed the human race off.

I believe that the following is not absolute, it fit the time, and probably still fits our time, but one day it may not be true:

1 Cor. 2: 10-12

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

We simply cannot learn these things at the current time or in our current state except the spirit reveal them.

[changed]

I do believe in an end to what we can discover,

As far as our ability to progress in heavenâ?¦ Jesus is described as learning, as â??becomingâ? as being â??madeâ? and formed, â??increasingâ? in wisdomâ?¦

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature

If Jesus can continue to learn and discover new things, perhaps we can too... eternal and infinite have no boundaries.

As to the thread title, because I didn't feel like reading through the whole OP, and did not read it in its entirety

I only believe in the existence that is. Immaterial, or not being material in some form, is not existing. I do not believe in a separate "spirit world" as it were. I believe they simply exist in a form that we cannot perceive. I believe that the spirit is some subatomic matter, or at the least some type of matter that is not visible through the means we have to view it.

Do you think that at some point we will be given the means to view it?

Some interesting concepts here.

One might view a human being, or any other sophisticated neural being, as being only active with that neural energy coursing through our systems. When interrupted, yes, that information could vanish

information does not vanish - not even in a Black Hole (Hawkins changed his mind about it) .

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/ajoy/hawking.htm

conservation principles, mass, energy, information - everything is conserved... changing from one form to another, but you can't get something from nothing, nor can you make something into nothing

Perhaps I should ask you what an identity is and where it comes from? And I mean thinking this through. Consider your own identity, or how you apply identity to others. Take me for example. I think that within this message board there are things that consititute my identity. I'd also bet that my self-identity would not know itself if it were introduced to the identity that you or any others here would assign to the name, Honorentheos. It would be a room full of strangers, though they are all refering to the same person.

Anyway, identity - where does it come from?

Perhaps this life is a place where we can discover who we are... Free agency means that part of our identity is defined by ourself... As much as we allow others to influence us, our identity becomes mixed up with theirs a bit... I once read "Who we are is who we are with others"... ie, if you are angry, you are angry with another.. if you are loving, you are loving to another... Our id is created when we interact with those around us... I guess our identity is hard to define. that is seomthing to ponder.

I find the topic interesting and problematic as well. To quickly summarize my thoughts from that thread - How can an intelligence have a pre-existing will that was not created and still have agency? In other words, if God did not create it, but each intelligence has varying degrees of either inate evil or is drawn to evil more than others, can God be still be just? Or does the plan of salvation begin to look like a spiritual version of "survival of the fittest"?

Without God, it would be survival of the fittest. He has changed it to survival of the nicest

http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/902.html

Again, split brain patients. Or as John pointed out, the research around brain trauma victims shows that personality and self-identity is certainly tied to the material brain.

I don't think anyone's personality can be correctly assessed if their brain is damaged...

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something interesting I found:

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/invert.html

Although the ameba is a single-celled animal, it does appear to be sensitive to the environment. This tiny animal moves away from light, but it has no photodetectors or eyes. The paramecium, another single-celled animal, also has no specialized sensory structures. However, it avoids cold, heat and chemicals by backing up and moving away.

How can this little bit of life detect light without eyes? Detect temperature without a nervous system? Perhaps we are sensitive to more than we know through means that we do not yet know.

The Lord created all things spiritually before he created them physically (Moses 3:5).

everything has a spirit... perhaps these little amebas ability to be aware of their surroundings is proof that there is something beyond our sensory organs (our spirit) that directs and guids the motion of our bodies...

[Richard]

As far as our ability to progress in heavenâ?¦ Jesus is described as learning, as â??becomingâ? as being â??madeâ? and formed, â??increasingâ? in wisdomâ?¦

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature

This wanting to progress anywhere accept into the grace of God is from temptation itself. It is all the ills of the world outlined in Genesis. It is pagan in nature. Either our Creator lied to humankind or the fallen angel did. God does not lie. He is truth itself. John 8:58= "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" He is the only one whom has existed eternally.

Changed, Jesus as a infant, child, and man, came in human form, lessoned himself to save us (Scriptural) He was also fully God. He went through the same experiences we all do accept for sin. When did Jesus know He was God? Here is what I know. Adam was created and given 100% grace in order to live a life of love in perfection. Jesus was not created as Adam, Jesus was born of the Virgin Marry and is the Grace from God, according to the scriptures, His own words he is the Word made flesh. One thing Jesus always did perfectly as a human was listening to His Father and doing His fathers will. He never grasped at perfection as something to be attained, or looked for equality with His Father. No, rather he was the perfect servant. Adam was out for himself as we all are in so many ways. Jesus was out for His Father will perfectly.

Jesus was progressing in wisdom yes, as a human, as his human brain would allow. But even from an infant he was hearing His Fathers voice. As he grew he began to understand His Fathers mission and what He was going to do for mankind. He was naturally aligned with the Fathers will perfectly. He was always tempted by the devil, even at a very young age just like us. He would always say â??get behind me satan even at the earliest of ageâ? He was perfect in this only because He is God the eternal Son made flesh.

Adam being created and given the choice to choose right or wrong was easily tempted for he acted upon it and brought death to all of the world. (original sin) we are not better or smarter than Adam. We all die as a result.

Jesus is the New Adam, the perfect example to us, what we can become as adopted sons and daughters if we take the hand of Jesus and allow Him to complete in us what we can never do on our own. Jesus learned as a Human and always progressed towards His Fathers mission. He learned as a human just as we do, but He is also God.

So could Adam and Eve been made more perfect? Could there have been a more perfect world? Was the grace they had from God enough? Is it enough for Jesus as a man? Or did they want it as their own? They were perfect in every way accept they were not their creator. (choice)They were tempted into believing that there was more than God, that they could become a god, that they could possess the Wisdom of God outright. That they could always progress into something better. Jesus was not progressing, He was being led always by His Father, He was learning who He was, who He always has been. He lessoned himself and became man. It is not our story to steal, our place to steal, to come down from heaven and be worthy, be tested to show our might and the strength of our own will. This is the devils game with all of us. This is the fall of mankind. Only one can do this from heaven..Jesus! He placed Himself in the lowest of Human places. In order to save us from the bottom up. The only place we have to progress to is the Cross, so that we can die with Jesus in Jesus in order to get back to the Garden and never want to leave again. It will be enough joy to last for all eternity. Hope that helps changed.

[Honorentheos]

Changed said - ... I guess our identity is hard to define. that is seomthing to ponder.

There is a story I love from buddhism about learning to empty one's cup in order to learn. It's one of the facinating connundrums about life. We learn best when we are open-minded and are exploring new ideas. But we act best when we are certain. Closed minded may be over-reaching, but it captures the reality of it.

I think that the more you empty your cup and ponder just how hard an identity is to define, you may see the challenge that arises in trying to show how this self-identity can be maintained beyond the physical death of the brain.

Just know that the trick is to still be able to function afterwards.

[changed]

There is a story I love from buddhism about learning to empty one's cup in order to learn.

I think I have heard that one before - there is no room to become filled with all that there is unless you first become empty to make room for it all... Become empty so that you can become full, lose yourself to find yourself, I like it.

Matthew 10:39 - [H]e that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

The Bhagavad Gita - â??Through selfless service, you will always be fruitful and find the fulfillment of your desiresâ?: this is the promise of the Creator.

What it really means to be selfless... forget the source, remember reading about becoming free of all desires and wants - empty yourself of all of it. At first I fought that idea, I mean not to desire anything? or want anything? Sure, try not to want the bad stuff, but shouldn't we want the good stuff? Then I started realizing that constantly trying to force our wants and needs and desires on everything, we no longer see what is really around us, we end up seeing nothing but our own wants/desires... only when the pools of our perception are clear can we clearly see... Not only can you not see clearly, through desires/wants you also are never satisfied with anything. Miserable way to live indeed. ...Interesting experiment to do, spend a day pushing aside all wants/desires/needs... just go through the day without trying to change or manipulate anything/anyone.... a huge burden is lifted through this experiment... just putting it all in His hands...

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find frest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

(New Testament | Matthew 11:28 - 30)

It really does feel as if a huge burden is lifted when we can learn to just let go of it all.

The Lord is no respecter of persons...

If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. - ... no matter where it comes from.

I think I have learned much from other faiths...

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/.../abolition4.htm

http://burningbosom.wordpress.com/2008/03/...sts-vice-versa/

D&C 93:29 - Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

The Bhagavad Gita - There never has been a time when you . . . have not existed, nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist. The body is mortal, but he who dwells in the body is immortal and immeasurable.

[changed]

Richard Richard, I will read through and reply again, although I am not really sure how much you actually read what I write... You are a man on a mission obviously and that is great, I love people who are passionate about their beliefs, that is wonderful. God is no respecter of persons though... perhaps you should consider the possibility that others have found truths too?

This wanting to progress anywhere accept into the grace of God is from temptation itself.

Anything good is of God. Desiring anything that is good is a desire to become closer to God. I did mean to imply that eternal progression would be anything but progression towards a closer relationship with God, Jesus, each other... The closer we grow to each other the closer we grow to God etc. etc... God's glory is infinite, hence our progression to Him can be an infinite journey...

please listen...

If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

â??No man has found â??pure space,â??

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place.â?

The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

"before Abraham was born, I am!"

I would love your comments on the pre-existence / no beginning thread

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...qpid=1208539576

Jesus â?¦ was also fully God.

I am sure there have been many trinity threadsâ?¦ I believe in a single Godhead who are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. They are all filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substanceâ?¦. (Holland?)

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Gen 17:1 AND the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three *men (people - Strong's H582) stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the groundâ?¦

Abraham himself describes the G-dhead as three separate people.

1 Tim 2: 5 For there is one G-d, and one mediator between G-d and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus is not G-d, he is the mediator between G-d and men. God cannot be His own mediator...

Matt 3: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

or should it read...

â??A voice came from within Jesus (not from heaven) saying this is me myself and I, I am pleased with myself.â? â?? does that make sense to you?

Luke 22: 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

In this instance, the will of Jesus is different than the will of the Father â?? two different people with two different wills.

Can you rewrite this scripture to agree with the trinity doctrine? Here it is:

Jesus, talking to himself, said unto himself, I really should not go through with this, nevertheless, not my will but my other will be done??? OK â?? I have no idea how to write the last half of that script to agree with the trinity.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with G-d and man.

G-d does not increase in favor with Himself.

John 7: 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

If Jesus was G-d the doctrine would be his own.

â??My doctrine is my own, I sent myself hereâ? Is that how it should read?

John 17:1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

G-d does not pray to himself, He does not glorify Himself, He does not give power to Himselfâ?¦

John 17: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d.

Jesus ascended to his Father indicating that His Father was at a different place that Jesus was.

Acts 2:3 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

If Father and Son and Holy Ghost were numerically one, how could Jesus be at the right hand of God? How would He be exalted? And why would He need to have received a promise of the Holy Ghost?

Mark 15: 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?

G-d does not forsake Himself. He does not cry out to Himself. He is not schizophrenicâ?¦ If they were all one person, it would be impossible to separate them now wouldnâ??t it?

Monotheism? One G-d????

Just as there is only one human nature of which every human being is a representative, there is only one divine nature of which every person of the G-dhead is a representativeâ?¦ Multiple people all with the same divine nature. One divine nature (one G-d) multiple beings who have this nature (Father, Spirit, Son)

1 apple + 1 apple + 1 apple = 3 apples

All apples, but not 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.

John 17: 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.They are one in mind, in spirit, as all Christians become one with each other.

Acts 4 explains what being â??oneâ? means:

Acts 4: 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

1 John 3:2 we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We shall be â??likeâ? not the same person asâ?¦

united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission, not in physical substance.

sorry, I guess that was a really long trinity rant... This thread has become anything goes! That is OK. I can't seem to stay on topic either.

(original sin)

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 24:16)

we can never do on our own.

I agree â?? we canâ??t save our self, however works are required for salvationâ?¦

more perfect

Jesus was perfect his entire life, just because He learned and grew does not mean at some point he was less perfect than at another point. Perfection is to continually grow. Through his entire life, Jesus was perfect, because he continually grew and progressed. â?¦ stop progressing, and you cease to be perfect IMO.

They were tempted into believing that there was more than God, that they could become a god, that they could possess the Wisdom of God outright.

would you diminish God by diminishing His creation? Who said there was more than God?

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

(New Testament | Romans 8:17)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)

â?¦That they could always progress into something better.

Sorryâ?¦ sounds rather devilish to scoff at ambitions to progressâ?¦ â??You canâ??t continue to progress, Jesus does not progress, there is no eternal progressionâ?â?¦ sounds like words from someone who does not want anyone to progressâ?¦ sorry. Eternal life = eternal progression.. life is something that grows and changes and progresses. The moment you stop progressing and growing is the moment you stop living and start dieing.

[Bee Eff]

Do you think that at some point we will be given the means to view it?

I believe that if we can figure out how, God will not deny us. Unless we fall to the error of Babel. Then perhaps we will be denied.

[Richard]

Changed, read my other post again if you have time.

The Spirit through the Church has opened my eyes to the Godhead as a relationship of pure Love. Just as it did with the Apostles. I have a sense of it in my daily life. If God is to love throughout all of eternity, having no beginning and no end would He not have One to Love? This would be the Eternal Son. The Son has loved the Father throughout all of eternity. They are forever One in being. The Holy Spirit is the bond, the Love between the Father and the Son, the love between them and it is this spirit that gives us life. The light of Christ. Trinity is laced throughout the Scriptures. Again itâ??s all in the proper context of Christianity. The Godhead is three separate individuals yet One God. I was baptized into this One spirit just as all other Christians. I am immersed into it. Believing in Trinity in the Christian sense means believing in God. When I gaze up at the Crucifix in my Church I am reminded that it was my Lord and God that died for me in order to have life. If you get this wrong, who God is, everything is wrong. Did Jesus speak to Himself when He spoke to His Father? No..He was speaking to His Father.

John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

Changed, I was also told by a LDS man in Logan that the Catholics changed the word gods, to God in Johns Gospel.

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

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III. Jesus Christ Claims to be God

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."

John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."

John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

[changed]

Started a new thread for ya Richard...

[markwhannig]

I am flattered that you think that I postulated all of the stuff--really I am. There are 100s of 1000s of scientists that study brain activity. I am not postulating anything crazy to suggest that thought is the product of the brain.

Your turn. Please show how consciousness survives death.

Mr. John Larson:

I apologize for the delay. I rarely go on-line during weekends -- too busy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your premise starts with the assumption (would I go too far to label it "faith") that the only conscious activity that exists is that which is measurable by current technological capacity.

What if 200 years from now students of neurological processes can measure finer and finer activity, and perceive more and more subtle phenomena. Will they not look back on all the now current research you have cited as quaint and naive?

Are you not simply saying: "We currently comprehend all that there is." That is what I perceive you as saying. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

If I am wrong, and you are allowing for the possibility of further discovery, how can you conclude that currently measurable activity is all that exists?

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

[Richard]

Started a new thread for ya Richard...

Just caught this

No Problem, accept in trying to explain the Trinity (God).

Thanks

[Zemah]

...or peyote. Or LSD I guess. I hear it helps enhance the religious experience, too.

LSD and the Religious Experience

I don't mean that as a bomb. It's just interesting to see the same rational for disbelief in the religious experience as a set formula known and operated by one belief system used to say, "but faith that transcends the senses proves God..." when one just before that recognized that the brain/mind is subject to chemical processes.

No drugs were involved in my experience.

I perceived God when my mind was clean and void of evil spirits. Why shouldn't a pure mind be able to receive a pure spirit? Or as Joseph Smith observed, the matter of the Lord can only be witnessed through pure eyes.

Zemah