Lds Prophets - Official Doctrine Vs. Personal Opinions

[urroner]

Limbo was never doctrine. And has always been defined as not knowing. The old Catholic Encyclopedia describes the fate of an unbaptized infant as not having been revealed.

Further, limbo was never synonymous with the hell of the damned. From the Baltimore Catechism:

The hell into which Christ's soul descended was not the hell of the damned, but a place or state of rest called Limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him.

This is what I heard about limbo on my mission and by a RCC priest before my mission, limbo is not hell, but it isn't heaven.

There are two limbos. The first is a temporary resting place, aka, the Bosom of Abraham, of those who awaited the salvation of Christ. The second is one of infants who die without baptism, who are guilty of no sin, but are not free of the original sin. This one is a permanent resting place.

This was taught as doctrine when I was young. True, it's not taught as doctrine today, but when I was young, and this was during the 50's and 60's, it was.

[zerinus]

Seriously, you tell me that personal experience is irrelevant and you point me to your personal blog??

Now you are really talking a lot of nonsense. You asked me for an explanation, and instead of typing it here I pointed you to a ready made explanation that I had prepared earlier. If you have run out of ideas, why don't you just admit it, instead of typing rubbish off the top of your head?

zerinus

[LDSMusic483]

Did you ask the priest what he meant? I'm sure he would have explained.

He seemed plenty old enough to both know what the word heathen meant and how pretty much everyone takes the word to mean. He also almost refused to baptize the baby because the parents weren't married. Finally, "so the child wouldn't be punished" he did so. He made it pretty clear the status he felt unbaptized babies held. Heathen and those who should be punished. Like I said, maybe he was off his rocker. He seemed rather old, and may have been holding on to old teachings. But it seems as though the teachings in this instance have changed some.

[zerinus]

It is not in the standard works, but it is in official church publications (i.e. gospel principles) The church has published this, and left it in there for quite a long while without changing it in subsequent releases, so it can be considered a doctrine of the church. Now the intrecacies of it, and how it was accomplished and such is unknown to us and is but speculation.

I can also point you to quotes from Gordon B. Hinckley in which he has repudiated that doctrine. So which one are you going to accept? When there are conflicting messages, it suggests that the Lord has not spoken. You can believe what you like.

zerinus

[LDSMusic483]

I can also point you to quotes from Gordon B. Hinckley in which he has repudiated that doctrine. So which one are you going to accept? When there are conflicting messages, it suggests that the Lord has not spoken. You can believe what you like.

zerinus

Point away

I think you are misunderstanding those quotes from Pres. Hinckley. Either that or God smacked JS when he died and said "you told them I used to be a man like them? Are you crazy?"

[zerinus]

Well then, explain how three different people receive three different, and contradictory, indications from the Holy Spirit?

We are discussing what determines LDS doctrine. I told you that it is the standard works. People's "personal revelations" have no bearing on that what soever.

zerinus

[LeSellers]

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, Page 95)

I've asked twice for the entire quotation. You have refused to provide it.

Your truncated version of Brother Brigham's words only reveals your ignorance. That you could provide such a quotation in minutes, but not produce the entire thing only shows you are not working from your own copy of the text, but from someone else's quote mining synopsis.

This is the third time I am asking for the entire quotation. Either produce it (and show how it supports "your" position), or retract your inane charge that every sermon of Brother Brigham's is "scripture".

Lehi

[zerinus]

Limbo was never doctrine. And has always been defined as not knowing. The old Catholic Encyclopedia describes the fate of an unbaptized infant as not having been revealed.

Not true. The earliest Catholic teaching was that they are damned. Limbo was also unchallenged for several centuries, before it was changed into "we don't know".

Further, limbo was never synonymous with the hell of the damned. . . .

I never said that it was.

zerinus

[zerinus]

So says you! I have read threads in this forums where other LDS members disagree with you...not that the original decision was wrong, but that it was not doctrine.

Others can say what they like. The Church has never said that the original decision was worng, or that it was "not doctrine". On the contrary, the teachings of the leadership has implied the opposite. At the time that the decision was made to give the priesthood to blacks, I recall in one statement made by President Kimball at that time was that the change was made in accordance with earlier prophecies, which implies that the original edecision was doctrine. In any case, what do you (or they) mean by "not doctrine"? That is a meaningless statement. It doesn't make sense. Either the original decision was wrong, or it was doctrine. It can't be right, and not doctrine.

zerinus

[urroner]

I've asked twice for the entire quotation. You have refused to provide it.

Your truncated version of Brother Brigham's words only reveals your ignorance. That you could provide such a quotation in minutes, but not produce the entire thing only shows you are not working from your own copy of the text, but from someone else's quote mining synopsis.

This is the third time I am asking for the entire quotation. Either produce it (and show how it supports "your" position), or retract your inane charge that every sermon of Brother Brigham's is "scripture".

Lehi

I doubt that wes will provide the full quote and the context. That isn't his style. His agenda against the Church demands that he misquote, distort, and abort when losing. He has done the first two quite handily, and the last has be demonstrated by his refusal to discuss anything at an mature level. He is only capable of allegations, accusations, and insinuations.

I have asked his several times for clarification on what he has said and he simply response by turning his back on me, pretending I don't exist. Typical. He has memorized the AMFM very well.

[LeSellers]

I doubt that wes will provide the full quote and the context. That isn't his style. His agenda against the Church demands that he misquote, distort, and abort when losing. He has done the first two quite handily, and the last has be demonstrated by his refusal to discuss anything at an mature level. He is only capable of allegations, accusations, and insinuations.

I doubt none of this.

I am not, however, going to let him slide quietly into the shadows.

I have asked his several times for clarification on what he has said and he simply response by turning his back on me, pretending I don't exist. Typical. He has memorized the AMFM very well.

I saw that earlier today.

plz: "AMFM"?

Lehi

[selek]

plz: "AMFM"?

Lehi

Anti-Mormon Field Manual

The predigested, artfully crafted, and wholly out-of-context list of talking points distributed to the candidate evangelical immediately following the lobotomy.

Particularly luck lobotomized evangelicals can get their copy autographed by the Tanners or even Beelzebub himself.

So far, Wes has covered pages one through four. We'll see how he fares on pages five through ten- they frequently use words of two syllables in that section.

[wes]

I've asked twice for the entire quotation. You have refused to provide it.

Your truncated version of Brother Brigham's words only reveals your ignorance. That you could provide such a quotation in minutes, but not produce the entire thing only shows you are not working from your own copy of the text, but from someone else's quote mining synopsis.

This is the third time I am asking for the entire quotation. Either produce it (and show how it supports "your" position), or retract your inane charge that every sermon of Brother Brigham's is "scripture".

Lehi

Here you go...

"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this [discourse] go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire."

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

[LDSMusic483]

Here you go...

"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this [discourse] go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire."

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

By george...he finally was able to google it, read through and find it! Adding to the sense that he didn't have the full quote in the beginning! I know because it took me awhile to do the same thing as there are no pages on that site!

[LeSellers]

Anti-Mormon Field Manual

Is that the new, updated Little Green* Book of Witnessing to Mormunz they used to issue to incoming freshmen at Xxxxxxx Bible college?

* The color of the pamphlet changed from time to time, but the contents haven't altered since 1832.

Lehi

[LifeOnaPlate]

Which apostle(s) and/or prophet(s) should I have studied and learned at the feet of? Gordon B. Hinckley wasn't even sure about certain doctrines and whether or not they are taught by the Mormon Church.

Just a note: what Pres. Hinckley knew was much more important to me than what he didn't.

You love the King interview, but ignore his subsequent statement about that interview that completely refutes your assumption.President Hinckley understood LDS doctrine as well as any man ever has. His statement "I don't know that we teach that much," is a classic example of understatement. The words do not say what he was actually saying.Lehi

I've explained this to wes. Wes will not change his mind on this issue.

[zerinus]

By george...he finally was able to google it, read through and find it! Adding to the sense that he didn't have the full quote in the beginning! I know because it took me awhile to do the same thing as there are no pages on that site!

There is a wiki version of the JoD available online that is even better, and more easily searchable. Here it is:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses

zerinus

[LifeOnaPlate]

scans of the JD can be found here:

http://scriptures.byu.edu/

[wes]

Just a note: what Pres. Hinckley knew was much more important to me than what he didn't.I've explained this to wes. Wes will not change his mind on this issue.

But shouldn't a supposed living prophet of the church that claims to have the restored gospel be a bit more clued in about such things? Gives me reasonable doubt as to his legitimacy.

[LeSellers]

Here you go...

"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this [discourse] go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire."

'Sabout time. For convenience, I highlighted the one sentence of this paragraph that you first posted.

Now, where is the analysis of how this means that every word Brother Brigham spoke was "Scripture"?

We might start with the sentence you first cited. When did Brother Brigham "send out" his sermon to the Saints?

What do you suppose he meant when he said, "it is as good Scripture as they deserve"?

What is the meaning of "let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon"?

Did Brother Brigham ever get that "privilege"?

When, among his voluminous sermons, did Brigham say "Thus saith the Lord"?

Finally, where did you get the sentence you posted first (and second), and why did you not post the whole paragraph in the first place?

Lehi

[wes]

Just a note: what Pres. Hinckley knew was much more important to me than what he didn't.I've explained this to wes. Wes will not change his mind on this issue.

Your explanation works for you and that's fine but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.

[LifeOnaPlate]

But shouldn't a supposed living prophet of the church that claims to have the restored gospel be a bit more clued in about such things? Gives me reasonable doubt as to his legitimacy.

Wes, so far everything has given you reasonable doubt so I'm not surprised at all. I realize now as a fundamentalist "saved" Christian you likely believe the Bible is all there is and that prophets must be perfect, that they must know all, etc. and all sorts of other assumptions Latter-day Saints ought not share.

Your explanation works for you and that's fine but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.

If you showed any sign of actually understanding the explanation things might be different. As it stands, you don't. You simply disregard it with a terse statement. You are seriously acting like a troll rather than one who wants to have a constructive conversation.

Note: Wes apparently thinks Brigham Young viewed scriptures as he does, as perfect God-breathed puppet-style dictation. His problem in saying BY said all his sermons were scripture is that he doesn't understand what Brigham Young himself believed about the nature of scripture.

[ttribe]

If you showed any sign of actually understanding the explanation things might be different. As it stands, you don't. You simply disregard it with a terse statement. You are seriously acting like a troll rather than one who wants to have a constructive conversation.

I think we've seen wes before...under a different name.

[LDSMusic483]

But shouldn't a supposed living prophet of the church that claims to have the restored gospel be a bit more clued in about such things? Gives me reasonable doubt as to his legitimacy.

So when Christ was asked where He had His authority from and He avoided answering the question...does that mean you have reasonable doubt to His authority?

[zerinus]

But shouldn't a supposed living prophet of the church that claims to have the restored gospel be a bit more clued in about such things? Gives me reasonable doubt as to his legitimacy.

And I explained to you before that what President Hinckley meant was not that he didn't know whether we teach that doctrine any more or not, but that we do not teach it or emphasize it any more, as once we used to. That is what he meant. Is that really that hard for you to understand?

zerinus