Lds Prophets - Official Doctrine Vs. Personal Opinions

[wes]

Again I ask - Was the Atonement sufficient to overcome BY's sins?

As long as he did "all he could" and obeyed all the ordinances of the Mormon Gospel.

[ttribe]

As long as he did "all he could" and obeyed all the ordinances of the Mormon Gospel.

That's not what I asked wes. I asked whether you think the Atonement of Christ was sufficient to cover BY's sins?

[wes]

That's not what I asked wes. I asked whether you think the Atonement of Christ was sufficient to cover BY's sins?

How is that relevant to this thread?

[wenglund]

Again, the Bible says to contend for the faith earnestly (Jude 1) along with testing all things (1 Thessalonians). You can criticize me for following what the Bible says but it is the destiny that is in front of me.

But, you aren't contending for your faith. You are being contentious against your former faith.

And, you have already tested your former faith and found it wanting, while we have already tested our faith and found to be true.

By continuing to revisit these things, you are thus dwelling in past, and not leaving each to their own or agreeing to disagree as you previously claimed. Clearly, your destiny is currently behind you. Once you figure that out, then you may change your direction of sight and put the future ahead of you and leave the past behind.

The choice is yours.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ttribe]

How is that relevant to this thread?

You're the one who accused BY and others of not being Christlike. Well, being Christlike starts with repentance and the application of the Atonement to the resolution of one's sins. So, I ask - was the Atonement of Christ sufficient for BY's sins?

[wes]

But, you aren't contending for your faith. You are being contentious against your former faith.

And, you have already tested your former faith and found it wanting, while we have already tested our faith and found to be true.

By continuing to revisit these things, you are thus dwelling in past, and not leaving each to their own or agreeing to disagree as you previously claimed. Clearly, your destiny is currently behind you. Once you figure that out, then you may change your direction of sight and put the future ahead of you and leave the past behind.

The choice is yours.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's your opinion Wade and you are entitled to it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If you have something relevant to the original topic of this thread please feel free to add it, otherwise you may want to start another thread.

[urroner]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly define the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. If individual Catholics disagree, the doctrines do not change. Doctrine is clear that we are not worshiping the Saints. Doctrine is clear on how a Pope is selected. If a person gives you a different answer, it is because they do not understand their own Catholic faith.

Saemo, I wasn't challenging Catholic doctrine, but having served my mission in a predominate Catholic country, I realize that there are those who insist that X is doctrine, and I know that it isn't. I was just pointing out that many of the things we LDSers are accused of, most other groups suffer the same liability.

(I have no idea how Evangelicals determine doctrine. )

I sure don't and I doubt if they do either.

[LDSMusic483]

I've find it interesting for all the anti's that come to post on here claiming that we're not Christlike and how much more Christlike they are now that they've left the church, and they keep trying to ask trap questions to try to prove us wrong. Ironically, it wasn't Christs method of teaching to do thus, but that behavior more accurately describes the scribes, sadduccees and pharisees.

[urroner]

I swear Paul was writing this to many of the modern day Christians who are critics of the Mormon Church:

Romans 2

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

[Zakuska]

Actually it is very relevant. The fact that being Black prevented a person from ANYTHING with regard to Mormonism is a huge problem for me and many others. Especially in light of the numerous racist comments made by numerous Mormon Prophets. The fact that a church who claims to have the restored gospel of Christ would deny a person something based on their skin color is atrocious.

I know what you mean...

Ezra 2: 62

62 These sought their aregister among those that were breckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

Neh. 7: 64

64 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

God has done some pretty atrocious things hasnt he!

[wenglund]

That's your opinion Wade and you are entitled to it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If you have something relevant to the original topic of this thread please feel free to add it, otherwise you may want to start another thread.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion as well. And, if someone on this thread has something to say that will enable me to become more like Christ, then I will be happy to add my comments, but until then, I will do as you suggest and look to other threads.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wes]

I swear Paul was writing this to many of the modern day Christians who are critics of the Mormon Church:

I think he was writing this about Joseph Smith and his "translations" of the BOM and BOA:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought themâ??bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 2: 1-3

I think this was written about Joseph Smith and Moroni:

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelâ?? which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Galations 1:6-9

[LDSMusic483]

I think he was writing this about Joseph Smith and his "translations" of the BOM and BOA:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought themâ??bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 2: 1-3

I think this was written about Joseph Smith and Moroni:

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelâ?? which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Galations 1:6-9

And Joseph Smith sure ended up so much better for having "duped" everyone because of his greed. Yep...money and prosperity...that's how his life went...oh wait...

And it certainly is a good thing he didn't preach a different Christ than the apostles. Your opinion, not ours.

[wes]

So, this thread has gotten way off topic...please keep your responses relevant to the original question posed.

[LDSMusic483]

So, this thread has gotten way off topic...please keep your responses relevant to the original question posed.

You led the way, we only responded to you.

I think the churches position has been explained enough to you. If you choose not to recognize it, then leave it be. You are the one who brings up tangient teachings which then causes the thread to "leave topic," so unless you have something of substance to add...please stop taking this thread off topic.

[Zakuska]

I think he was writing this about Joseph Smith and his "translations" of the BOM and BOA:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought themâ??bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 2: 1-3

I think this was written about Joseph Smith and Moroni:

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelâ?? which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Galations 1:6-9

Answer some questions please...

Rev. 14: 6

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every enation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

1)How can the earth have the Gospel if an Angel has to come back with it to the earth to preach?

Apparently the Gospel was lost from the earth, or their would be no reason to send an Angel back with it.

[zerinus]

So why didn't Hinckley just clear it up right there in Conference and explain his understanding of that issue?

Clear up what? He cleared up what he needed to clear up.

zerinus

[wes]

Answer some questions please...

Rev. 14: 6

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every enation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

1)How can the earth have the Gospel if an Angel has to come back with it to the earth to preach?

Apparently the Gospel was lost from the earth, or their would be no reason to send an Angel back with it.

Again, please only post responses related to the original question posed.

[ttribe]

Again, please only post responses related to the original question posed.

That was a response to you. Are you just trying to dodge?

[LDSMusic483]

Again, please only post responses related to the original question posed.

So Wes...apparently you are able to throw out posts that have nothing to do with your original thread, but when we try to answer those, or creat dialogue on them, it's no game? You'll find that your thread will fall into the nothingness of thread chronicles if you keep that attitude up. Why don't YOU contribute something useful?

[saemo]

Saemo, I wasn't challenging Catholic doctrine, but having served my mission in a predominate Catholic country, I realize that there are those who insist that X is doctrine, and I know that it isn't. I was just pointing out that many of the things we LDSers are accused of, most other groups suffer the same liability.

It is not a liability for Catholics, at all.

While individual Catholics may have ambiguities, and some areas of the world are even quite superstitious, the Catholic Church is not.

But in Mormonism, individuals may have ambiguities about some doctrines because the LDS Church itself is ambiguous about them.

[zerinus]

Hey Wade,

Thanks for sharing your experience. My experience in the LDS church did not lead me to become more like Christ. . . .

My experience is that it has led me to become more like Christ. My experience is that it leads everyone to become more like Christ. You must be an exception.

zerinus

[LDSMusic483]

It is not a liability for Catholics, at all.

While individual Catholics may have ambiguities, and some areas of the world are even quite superstitious, the Catholic Church is not.

But in Mormonism, individuals may have ambiguities about some doctrines because the LDS Church itself is ambiguous about them.

Yes because we don't believe God has revealed all He will yet reveal. So until He does, we can have our opinions on it.

[saemo]

Yes because we don't believe God has revealed all He will yet reveal. So until He does, we can have our opinions on it.

There you go. There is no such thing as opinion=doctrine or doctrine=opinion in Catholicism, or any other church that I am aware of.

[zerinus]

. . . After all, he did say he was "not sure we teach that."

By that he didn't mean that he wasn't sure if we teach it or not. What he meant was that it is no longer widely taught from the pulpit. That is true. I haven't heard it mentioned at General Conference for years. It is not a doctrine that is widely taught in the Church any more.

zerinus