Brigham Young & The Journal Of Discourses

[Scottie]

This is an interesting dynamic.

Hey, I can play apologist sometimes!!

[selek]

To me it is just flat out wrong under any circumstances. The fact that LOAP and Stuess can retain a testimony in light of it is their affair.

I agree- that is there affair.

But when you come in here and denounce an entire sermon, you'll need to be a bit more specific.

Pointing to the entire Encyclopedia Britannica and saying "it's wrong" doesn't tell us anything.

What- specifically- do you find objectionable?

What- specifically- do you think is incorrect?

[wes]

But does a wrong statement make the church untrue or BY not a prophet?

Both...I have seen enough to doubt the legitimacy of both BY and JS who are the foundation of Mormonism. Thus, if they're not prophets, the church is not true. I personally think they were scoundrels who were after sex and money.

[emeliza]

Hey, I can play apologist sometimes!!

You do fairly well at it too. That is why we love you Scottie. You are a critic who at least gives us some benefits.

[selek]

Hey, I can play apologist sometimes!!

What are the old adages about broken clocks and not quitting your day job?

[emeliza]

Both...I have seen enough to doubt the legitimacy of both BY and JS who are the foundation of Mormonism. Thus, if they're not prophets, the church is not true. I personally think they were scoundrels who were after sex and money.

Have you read any apologist information? And why did you come here by chance? (This might be too personal and if it is sorry)

I personally think they were both prophets, but obviously made quite a few mistakes and probably like any person had issues with power now and again.

[wes]

I agree- that is there affair.

But when you come in here and denounce an entire sermon, you'll need to be a bit more specific.

Pointing to the entire Encyclopedia Britannica and saying "it's wrong" doesn't tell us anything.

What- specifically- do you find objectionable?

What- specifically- do you think is incorrect?

I find the endorsement of murder objectionable and think it is incorrect in ANY conext.

[Doctor Steuss]

So, do you agree with LoaP and Steuss that it is wrong AND that it doesn't affect their testimony?? Or just that it is wrong??

In the spirit of disclosure, I'm largely agnostic. I just don't think this is enough to turn the beauty of Mormonism into a turd brownie.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Your response gives me more reason to doubt the legitimacy of Mormonism. It is drenched with defensiveness. The JOD has numerous troubling statements in it. It is one of MANY things I find deeply disturbing about Mormonism. Nothing you have said has been inviting in any way.

I gave you some specific things to read and your response, to me, showed that you didn't actually take any time to look into it for yourself. It seems you've made your mind up. That's fine, but it doesn't lend into productive dialog. I started a blog on the JD for some of the reasons you mention, it being disturbing, etc. On the whole I have been quite impressed with how often there is good and how rarely there is something that makes me cringe. (Though there are some moments!)

www.lifeongoldplates.com

[selek]

Both...I have seen enough to doubt the legitimacy of both BY and JS who are the foundation of Mormonism.

Incorrect and vague.

Jesus Christ is the foundation of Mormonism.

If either Joseph or Brigham were the foundation, the faith would never have survived them.

I personally think they were scoundrels who were after sex and money.

Instead of tossing out inflammatory one-liners, why not offer specific evidences of your charges.

I find the endorsement of murder objectionable and think it is incorrect in ANY conext.

DID Brigham Young endorse murder, or was he speaking metaphorically (and citing specific scripture) to teach a larger truth?The context- and discourse as a whole- seems to support metaphor and a larger lesson.

To quote BSix from earlier in the thread:

In spinning this hypothetical situation, BY goes out of his way to point out that such behavior is NOT acceptable for several reasons -- not the least of whic is that none of us are righteous and thus do not have the right to judge and to act. In this manner, BY is applying the same standard as Jesus did when condemning and executing adulterers. Remember, Jesus approved of the stoning to death of the woman taken in the act of adultery...but warned those who would kill her that they must be without sin themselves. Obviously, she was not stoned. Jesus warned her to commit her sin no more.

BY specifically counsels that not only should we not punish those who are sinners, we are to be compassionate toward sinners of this sort because of of our own sins.

From the context of the comments, BY is speaking specifically about the obligations of those who have been endowed and made specific covenants to the Lord regarding marital fidelity. He is using such a sin as an example to show how even the most faithful violate sacred covenants.

[emeliza]

I find the endorsement of murder objectionable and think it is incorrect in ANY conext.

Would I be correct to guess that you are atheist or agnostic as well? Possibly with a bit of Buddhist ideology?

[Scottie]

Both...I have seen enough to doubt the legitimacy of both BY and JS who are the foundation of Mormonism. Thus, if they're not prophets, the church is not true. I personally think they were scoundrels who were after sex and money.

Sooo....back to the original post you made. You said you didn't want to be called anti-Mormon or troll, yet it sounds like you have your mind made up and that nothing anyone will say here will change that, right?

As one critic to another, let me tell you how I view this.

I've never been one to lend much credence to what the JoD's say. I DO believe that prophets can, and often do, speak as men. (Well, I actually believe they always speak as men, but for this specific case, lets assume they are prophets).

Why would you believe that BY couldn't start a fairly innocent talk, get empassioned and, as a weak man, let his emotions take over? Perhaps saying some things that he wish he hadn't said?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I apologize if I have been uncharitable. Is having doubts about Mormonism based on troubling quotes by Mormon prophets generally considered uncharitable?

Wouldn't you know it, I blogged on that very issue this week!

Simultaneous Searching and Certainty?

Is Doubt a Sin?

Essentially I argue that doubt is a condition rather than a virtue or vice.

You might also like my notes from Mike Ash's talk on shaken faith.

[wes]

Sooo....back to the original post you made. You said you didn't want to be called anti-Mormon or troll, yet it sounds like you have your mind made up and that nothing anyone will say here will change that, right? As one critic to another, let me tell you how I view this.I've never been one to lend much credence to what the JoD's say. I DO believe that prophets can, and often do, speak as men. (Well, I actually believe they always speak as men, but for this specific case, lets assume they are prophets).Why would you believe that BY couldn't start a fairly innocent talk, get empassioned and, as a weak man, let his emotions take over? Perhaps saying some things that he wish he hadn't said?

Because it's not the only crazy thing BY said. There's a whole slew of them.

Would I be correct to guess that you are atheist or agnostic as well? Possibly with a bit of Buddhist ideology?

No, but why is that relevant?

[selek]

Because it's not the only crazy thing BY said. There's a whole slew of them.No, but why is that relevant?

First and foremost, you haven't proven that this statement by Brigham Young is crazy.

You've asserted it, but you haven't proven anything.

Your claim above is yet another in a series of lamentable- and suspicious- vague charges wholly lacking in specifics.

You keep tossing out vague charges, wes- but you've never offered a single specific instance.

Why not?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Because it's not the only crazy thing BY said. There's a whole slew of them.No, but why is that relevant?

Again, I've found in reading a good deal of Young's sermons that he spoke cogently, wisely, and inspirationally more often than not. Because I don't expect perfection of him, I am encouraged by his flaws and love him the more. The more I've tried to learn about Brigham the more I like him. I didn't really expect that, to be honest.

Have you had the chance to check out any of the links I've given?

[emeliza]

Because it's not the only crazy thing BY said. There's a whole slew of them.

No, there really isn't. There are probably 6 or 7 of his talks that might be considered crazy-ish. Most of the stuff though is just taken out of context. Course it depends on who the member is on how they feel the context should be. And please don't go into the Adam/God theory until after you have done a search and read stuff on the board. We just got passed a few weeks of Adam/God. Thanks!

No, but why is that relevant?

Well you don't appear to be religious and I was just curious on whether you are and if so, do you hold your own religion up to the same grade you are holding long dead people up to.

[Agellius]

I find it hard to believe that a prophet of God who claims to be representing the true gospel of Christ would ever make such statements.

Wes:

I'm not LDS myself (I'm Catholic), so I have no horse in this race. But what grounds are there for saying that a prophet would never say anything that is wrong or incorrect? When you become a prophet do you become infallible or sinless?

In order to use BY's comments against himself and his claim to be a prophet, you would have to show that he was in the act of giving a prophecy at the time he made them.

[ttribe]

Because it's not the only crazy thing BY said. There's a whole slew of them.

Which is demonstrative of the fact that he was an emotional fellow who was prone to hyperbole, but not necessarily that he wasn't prophet. On the flip side, when a church full of people weakened by a persecution, a trek west, and starting a whole new set of communities in a barren area needed a very strong willed leader to keep them motivated and in line, guess what the Lord gave them - Brigham Young...EXACTLY what that group of people needed...but probably not what we need right now; which is why we have someone like Thomas S. Monson. Funny how that works, huh?

[Scottie]

Again, a lamentable- and suspicious- lack of specifics.

You keep tossing out vague charges, wes- but you've never offered a single specific instance.

Why not?

In fairness to Wes, he has detailed why he thinks this particular discourse is disturbing. Because it condones murder, which is not acceptable in any situation.

I can see his point. I don't see that BY was speaking metaphorically. "I don't love any of my wives so much that I wouldn't kill her" isn't a metaphor!! That's just downright disturbing!!

[ttribe]

Hey, I can play apologist sometimes!!

Must be Halloween!

In fairness to Wes, he has detailed why he thinks this particular discourse is disturbing. Because it condones murder, which is not acceptable in any situation.I can see his point. I don't see that BY was speaking metaphorically. "I don't love any of my wives so much that I wouldn't kill her" isn't a metaphor!! That's just downright disturbing!!

Certainly would make you sit up and take notice, wouldn't it?

[selek]

In fairness to Wes, he has detailed why he thinks this particular discourse is disturbing. Because it condones murder, which is not acceptable in any situation.

I can see his point. I don't see that BY was speaking metaphorically. "I don't love any of my wives so much that I wouldn't kill her" isn't a metaphor!! That's just downright disturbing!!

Perhaps; but BSix's summaries and a fuller reading of the text don't support the idea that Young was actively condoning murder.

That's a charge that has been made, but never proven.

[wes]

In fairness to Wes, he has detailed why he thinks this particular discourse is disturbing. Because it condones murder, which is not acceptable in any situation.

I can see his point. I don't see that BY was speaking metaphorically. "I don't love any of my wives so much that I wouldn't kill her" isn't a metaphor!! That's just downright disturbing!!

Thanks Scottie....my point exactly.

[selek]

Thanks Scottie....my point exactly.

Yet you still haven't proven that Young advocated or approved of murder.

You've got one hyperbolic statement that contradicts the rest of the sermon.

The sermon itself states that judgement isn't in our hands because our hands are dirty/sinful.

You can allege all day and all night that the sermon endorses murder, and accomplish nothing.

Prove it.

I don't want an "I think" or an "I feel" or a vague "It's just wrong".

Wes:

Demonstrate where- specifically and with citations- Young's sermon advocates for murder as a practice, art form, and recreational pasttime.

Until then, you're just blowng smoke.

[wes]

Which is demonstrative of the fact that he was an emotional fellow who was prone to hyperbole, but necessarily that he wasn't prophet. On the flip side, when a church full of people weakened by a persecution, a trek west, and starting a whole new set of communities in a barren area needed a very strong willed leader to keep them motivated and in line, guess what the Lord gave them - Brigham Young...EXACTLY what that group of people needed...but probably not what we need right now; which is why we have someone like Thomas S. Monson. Funny how that works, huh?

So what his point when he said men lived on the sun?