gmormon Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 That didn't really answer my question. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and God?I think this is exactly the type of response that selek and ttribe where questioning! Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Ann Eliza called him a tyrant...but she was just an angry ex-mormon so we won't give any creedence to her opinions. There's also John D. Lee who clearly was not a fan of BY...but he doesn't have any credibility either, right?Emma apparently didn't like him, either. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 That didn't really answer my question. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and God?Yes I do...but Christianity is not on trial here and I am not going to get into any of that. This board is about MORMON apologetics and I'd like to keep it on subject. It seems there are many here who want to try and flip it back on me, my beliefs, and/or Christianity which completely misses the point of what BY said. Link to comment
Deborah Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Well of COURSE someone is going to be kind to those who know him best. That's WHY they know him best!!How did he treat those who knew him least??Apparently in the same way. Many people were helped as they traveled through the territory. Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 [...]Well of COURSE someone is going to be kind to those who know him best. That's WHY they know him best!!How did he treat those who knew him least??40 Ways to Look at Brigham Young has a chapter that compiles a lot of accounts from journalists and others who passed through Utah and met Brigham. Some aren't very flattering, but the vast majority are somewhat complimentary (or at least are complimentary in regards to how he treated them while there). It's kind of interesting when reading them to keep in mind that some of these people were the very journalists he didn't always have snuggly words for in his sermons.Edited to add:Don't buy the book, if you're interested in the accounts. Just see if you can find a copy at a library. In my opinion, the book isn't worth owning (except maybe for 5-6 of the 40 chapters). Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Actually, I think Mormonism is a high-jacked version of Christianity.Are you a Christian?Yes I do...but Christianity is not on trial here and I am not going to get into any of that. This board is about MORMON apologetics and I'd like to keep it on subject. It seems there are many here who want to try and flip it back on me, my beliefs, and/or Christianity which completely misses the point of what BY said.To the contrary, Mormonism is Christian. There isn't so much an attempt to "flip it back" on you, as an attempt to demonstrate you hew a heavy double standard. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Are you a Christian?Yes, but that is not relevant to this thread. Link to comment
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It has less to do with that and more to do with double standards and trying to help people apply the same standards to their own beliefs that they apply to the beliefs of others. I swear this has been explained to you several times.It only works if the person believes in the Bible. I was under the impression that Wes did not. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Are you a Christian?To the contrary, Mormonism is Christian. There isn't so much an attempt to "flip it back" on you, as an attempt to demonstrate you hew a heavy double standard.What I believe about God and/or Jesus has nothing to do with what BY said. Link to comment
ryanelwood Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The Mountain Meadows Massacre took place in 1857.The quote you are talking about is a popular blood-atonement quote, but blood atonment applied to apostate Mormons, not just any wagon train. Mountain Meadows could have been a lot things: War hysteria, act of vengeance. But it was not Blood Atonement. Even Will Bagley doesn't make that case. I have no problem saying this quote demonstrates Young to be a religious fanatic. He certainly taught Blood Atonement. The extent to how much it was actually practiced is another matter. Very little work has been done on how often it was actually done because of the difficulty in determining if certain murders were blood atonment or not. Some books you may want to consult is David Bigler's Forgotten Kingdon and Michael Quinn's Mormon Hierarchy: Exstensions of Power. Just to make sure you are logically consistent, if you have problems with this statement by Young, can I assume you have even greater problems with the genocidal orders supposedley from God himself in the Old Testament? Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Are you a Christian?To the contrary, Mormonism is Christian. There isn't so much an attempt to "flip it back" on you, as an attempt to demonstrate you hew a heavy double standard.Mormonism does not fall under the definition of Orthodox Christianity but that is the discussion of another thread entirely. Link to comment
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I think this is exactly the type of response that selek and ttribe where questioning!See how kindly I re-asked, and how I made it more specific? And, guess what? I got a great answer from Wes! Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Mormonism does not fall under the definition of Orthodox Christianity but that is the discussion of another thread entirely.Nah, I kind of like where this is going. So you want to point out problems with Brigham Young, including apparently faulty science, but you believe in the Genesis account as actual history in real time. Do I have that right? Link to comment
Deborah Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It seems there are many here who want to try and flip it back on me, my beliefs, and/or Christianity which completely misses the point of what BY said. But your beliefs are relevant when you are trying to denounce ours by using a double standard in judgement. Also the LDS perspective is that the Jehovah of the OT is the same person as Jesus Christ. The reason there seems to be a change in philosophy is because people don't understand that Jesus was giving a higher law to live by, something the ancient Israelites didn't have due to their disobedience and return to idolatry while in the wilderness. The Law of Moses was very literal and very temporal in nature and yet all that was done under the Law was a prelude to what Christ would bring. In fact not only was Christ as strict but he expected more. It wasn't enough not to commit adultery but one musn't even think it in his heart. The animal sacrifices became sacrifices of the heart and spirit, something much more difficult to do. Link to comment
gmormon Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 See how kindly I re-asked, and how I made it more specific? And, guess what? I got a great answer from Wes!However Wes believes you are a co-travellor in his quest to denounce everything Brigham, where as selek and ttribe would rather walk down a different road Link to comment
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Mormonism does not fall under the definition of Orthodox Christianity but that is the discussion of another thread entirely.That is kind of the point of Mormonism. Orthadox Christianity had lost it's way. Mormonism claims to have restored it. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 The quote you are talking about is a popular blood-atonement quote, but blood atonment applied to apostate Mormons, not just any wagon train. Mountain Meadows could have been a lot things: War hysteria, act of vengeance. But it was not Blood Atonement. Even Will Bagley doesn't make that case. I have no problem saying this quote demonstrates Young to be a religious fanatic. He certainly taught Blood Atonement. The extent to how much it was actually practiced is another matter. Very little work has been done on how often it was actually done because of the difficulty in determining if certain murders were blood atonment or not. Some books you may want to consult is David Bigler's Forgotten Kingdon and Michael Quinn's Mormon Hierarchy: Exstensions of Power. Just to make sure you are logically consistent, if you have problems with this statement by Young, can I assume you have even greater problems with the genocidal orders supposedley from God himself in the Old Testament?My point was that such statements could desensitize people sufficiently to act in ways that would lead to something like the MMM.To answer your other question, I am deeply troubled by anything similar in the Old Testament. My Christian faith focuses on Christ and his teachings which advocate the golden rule. Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 My point was that such statements could desensitize people sufficiently to act in ways that would lead to something like the MMM.Certainly could, indeed. As can the Bible. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 That is kind of the point of Mormonism. Orthadox Christianity had lost it's way. Mormonism claims to have restored it.Yes, and if God chose JS and BY to "restore" the true gospel then that alone is reason enough not to buy their version (but there are sufficient other reasons not to buy it). Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Certainly could, indeed. As can the Bible.If you want to discuss the difference between Orthodox Christianity and Mormonism please start another thread. Link to comment
tomfoolery Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yes, and if God chose JS and BY to "restore" the true gospel then that alone is reason enough not to buy their version (but there are sufficient other reasons not to buy it).Look Wes, bro. Take my advice. Just stop where you are at. This is an apologetics board and people here are held to a higher standard about the claims they make. When you make such amazing claims as this but then provide no evidence to back it up, a lot of people will quickly become frustrated with you.I would advise you to take a break from this discussion and actually take the time to prepare a logical argument with quotes and references to back up your claims. Please don't continue to make these statements and then say nothing to prove it. PLEASE. If you continue with these one liners, you are only shooting yourself in the foot here and will acomplish nothing but a bash-fest. And I don't think ANYONE really wants that. Link to comment
ryanelwood Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 My point was that such statements could desensitize people sufficiently to act in ways that would lead to something like the MMM.Good point.To answer your other question, I am deeply troubled by anything similar in the Old Testament. My Christian faith focuses on Christ and his teachings which advocate the golden rule.I am not sure what exactly you believe about Jesus. But for your argument to be consistent, then your faith could not possibly believe that Jesus was the God of Old Testament. Since that god, much like Brigham Young, ordered people to die for breaking the commandments like working on the wrong day, disobedient children, worshipping idols, etc, etc. This god also ordered acts of genocide by Joshua in conquering the promised land that makes Mountain Meadows look like childs play. Nineteenth century Mormonism was in many ways a sort of Old Testament church. They built temples, established a theocratic kingdom, practiced polygamy, believed in the gathering of Israel as purpoted by the book of Isaiah, Joseph said animal sacrifice would be re-implmented at a future date (or something like that, someone else here I am sure can provide the exact quote on that), etc, etc. Therefore, it is not surprising to me that Young may want to re-implement killing people in same manner god did in the Old Testament. Link to comment
Nemesis Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Ok it seems that we need to tone some posters down. I have kicked bomb throwers out of the thread and the ones that are left if you can't handle yourselves appropriately I will get you out of the thread also. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Look Wes, bro. Take my advice. Just stop where you are at. This is an apologetics board and people here are held to a higher standard about the claims they make. When you make such amazing claims as this but then provide no evidence to back it up, a lot of people will quickly become frustrated with you.I would advise you to take a break from this discussion and actually take the time to prepare a logical argument with quotes and references to back up your claims. Please don't continue to make these statements and then say nothing to prove it. PLEASE. If you continue with these one liners, you are only shooting yourself in the foot here and will acomplish nothing but a bash-fest. And I don't think ANYONE really wants that.I have plenty to back it up but this thread is supposed to be about the statement by Brigham Young which has started to get off topic. I will likely start other threads supporting the statement I made. Link to comment
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Good point.I am not sure what exactly you believe about Jesus. But for your argument to be consistent, then your faith could not possibly believe that Jesus was the God of Old Testament. Since that god, much like Brigham Young, ordered people to die for breaking the commandments like working on the wrong day, disobedient children, worshipping idols, etc, etc. This god also ordered acts of genocide by Joshua in conquering the promised land that makes Mountain Meadows look like childs play. Nineteenth century Mormonism was in many ways a sort of Old Testament church. They built temples, established a theocratic kingdom, practiced polygamy, believed in the gathering of Israel as purpoted by the book of Isaiah, Joseph said animal sacrifice would be re-implmented at a future date (or something like that, someone else here I am sure can provide the exact quote on that), etc, etc. Therefore, it is not surprising to me that Young may want to re-implement killing people in same manner god did in the Old Testament.Again, this is getting off topic so please feel free to start another thread if you want to discuss it further. Link to comment
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