LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I fully agree Scottie...nothing Christlike whatsoever. Why would a prophet of God who claims to be a follower of Christ ever say something so horrible under ANY circumstances?Please be honest: you haven't read one full link I have provided, have you?Not really, no.Doesn't make them any less disturbing.BTW, HERE is the JoD he last referenced.He culled it straight from an anti-Mormon site. Look at the reference, it notes the JD and DN, just as do the quotes from the tanners. Even includes the famous Tanner ALL CAPS.
Deborah Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I fully agree Scottie...nothing Christlike whatsoever. Why would a prophet of God who claims to be a follower of Christ ever say something so horrible under ANY circumstances? Why would Christ say "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead menâ??s bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt 23:10) Or why would Jesus do the following: "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." or why would all the prophets from the beginning preach destruction of the people if they didn't keep the commandments or why was Joshua actually told to leave nothing alive, not even innocents on entering the promised land? I don't know but I think the epithet of whited sepulchres was pretty serious name calling for the day and overthrowing tables wasn't exactly an act of meekness. You need to keep in mind the perspective of this life not being the end but only a stopping point.
Doctor Steuss Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 [...]Why would a prophet of God who claims to be a follower of Christ ever say something so horrible under ANY circumstances?[...]Dunno. I also don't know why the acid-trip at the end of most Bibles isn't all flowers and puppy-dogs either.
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 Please be honest: you haven't read one full link I have provided, have you?He culled it straight from an anti-Mormon site. Look at the reference, it notes the JD and DN, just as do the quotes from the tanners. Even includes the famous Tanner ALL CAPS.Lifeonaplate, I would be happy to look at any link you would like me to if you agree to look at any link I provide.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Lifeonaplate, I would be happy to look at any link you would like me to if you agree to look at any link I provide.I'll take that as a "no." I'll waste no further time.
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 Why would Christ say "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead menâ??s bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt 23:10) Or why would Jesus do the following: "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." or why would all the prophets from the beginning preach destruction of the people if they didn't keep the commandments or why was Joshua actually told to leave nothing alive, not even innocents on entering the promised land? I don't know but I think the epithet of whited sepulchres was pretty serious name calling for the day and overthrowing tables wasn't exactly an act of meekness. You need to keep in mind the perspective of this life not being the end but only a stopping point.Doesn't even come close to what BY said.
Deborah Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 A person who does not think for themselves is one who simply stays in the church he was raised in without questioning it. So what does that say about me and many others on this board who were not raised in the church but chose it? Doesn't even come close to what BY said. So actually slaying people in the land, including the children. isn't as bad as what Brigham said, in your mind?
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 So what does that say about me and many others on this board who were not raised in the church but chose it? So actually slaying people in the land, including the children. isn't as bad as what Brigham said, in your mind?Lots of people choose things for lots of different reasons.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Where's a snarky one-liner by the ever-trying cinepro when you need one?
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 Doesn't even come close to what BY said.I was referring to Jesus and not the Old Testament portions.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Lots of people choose things for lots of different reasons.Stuff people do are things. I disagree with what you said, it's simply not convincing enough. People and things are stuff.
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Huh...I was reading the most recent JoD entry and these struck me...Whether you receive these things or not, I tell you them in simplicity. I lay them before you like a child, because they are perfectly simple. If you see and understand these things, it will be by the Spirit of God; you will receive them by no other spirit. No matter whether they are told to you like the thunderings of the Almighty, or by simple conversation; if you enjoy the Spirit of the Lord, it will tell you whether they are right or not.andThat is my opinion about it, and my opinion to me is just as good as yours is to you; and if you are of the same opinion you will be satisfied as I am.Interesting.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I was referring to Jesus and not the Old Testament portions.Being a life-long Mormon, though, you are aware that Christ is often considered to be the God of the OT in terms of "Yahweh," right?
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 Being a life-long Mormon, though, you are aware that Christ is often considered to be the God of the OT in terms of "Yahweh," right?Yes I am aware of that but Jesus ushered in a new age and told people to turn the other cheek.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Yes I am aware of that but Jesus ushered in a new age and told people to turn the other cheek.So after he destroyed Sodom and G. he had a change of approach?
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 So after he destroyed Sodom and G. he had a change of approach?If you're trying to use the Old Testament to justify BY's statement I'm not buying it.
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 If you're trying to use the Old Testament to justify BY's statement I'm not buying it.Yeah, this is a favorite of the apologists. Every conceivable horrific act was committed at some point in the Bible by Gods command. If LDS prophets do these horrific acts, it's okay because we have precedence.
Deborah Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Yeah, this is a favorite of the apologists. Every conceivable horrific act was committed at some point in the Bible by Gods command. If LDS prophets do these horrific acts, it's okay because we have precedence. Scottie, Scottie, Scottie... The point is that people get overly excited by some statements of a modern dead prophet but apparently do not have the same standard when it comes to ancient dead prophets, who were actually much blunter than Brigham. Brigham did not do any of these acts. His rhetoric may have been strong but so was the rhetoric of the day. Those who knew him best report him to be the kindest of men and ever ready to help others.
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 Scottie, Scottie, Scottie... The point is that people get overly excited by some statements of a modern dead prophet but apparently do not have the same standard when it comes to ancient dead prophets, who were actually much blunter than Brigham. Brigham did not do any of these acts. His rhetoric may have been strong but so was the rhetoric of the day. Those who knew him best report him to be the kindest of men and ever ready to help others.Ann Eliza called him a tyrant...but she was just an angry ex-mormon so we won't give any creedence to her opinions. There's also John D. Lee who clearly was not a fan of BY...but he doesn't have any credibility either, right? Of course, the pro-mormon view is that he was the kindest of men!
Doctor Steuss Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 If you're trying to use the Old Testament to justify BY's statement I'm not buying it.I don't think it necessarily works as a justification either (although I'm not entirely sure that is the end to which LoaP is moving towards).In the same vein though, Jesus and the New Testament isn't exactly the Coom-ba-ya fest of peace, love, and S&G "all is groovy" that some like to make it out to be. As Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer put it (regarding Matthew):â??Jesusâ?? favorite activity, according to Matthew, is to threaten people with violent punishments using his preferred phrase, â??weeping and gnashing of teeth.â? Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, Jesus Against Christianity: Reclaiming the Missing Jesus, Trinity Press International, Harrisburg (2001), pg. 293These â??vile images and violent portraits of G[-]dâ? (Nelson-Pallmeyer, pg. 293) might make one wonder â??why would a prophet of G-d who claims to be a follower of Christ ever say something so horribleâ? as the words Matthew attributes to Christ â??to express his own passionate hatred of Jews who rejected claims that Jesus fulfilled messianic promisesâ?¦â? (pg. 292)We need not justify Brighamâ??s words, but we neednâ??t also demand he match a standard that isnâ??t necessarily supported by the New Testament.
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Scottie, Scottie, Scottie... The point is that people get overly excited by some statements of a modern dead prophet but apparently do not have the same standard when it comes to ancient dead prophets, who were actually much blunter than Brigham. Brigham did not do any of these acts. His rhetoric may have been strong but so was the rhetoric of the day.I get the feeling that Wes doesn't give Biblical prophets much credibility either. Wes, do you believe in Christ, just not Mormonism, or do you believe it is all bunk?I agree with you in the double standard of EV's. Drives me insane!!Those who knew him best report him to be the kindest of men and ever ready to help others.Well of COURSE someone is going to be kind to those who know him best. That's WHY they know him best!!How did he treat those who knew him least??
wes Posted October 30, 2008 Author Posted October 30, 2008 I get the feeling that Wes doesn't give Biblical prophets much credibility either. Wes, do you believe in Christ, just not Mormonism, or do you believe it is all bunk?I agree with you in the double standard of EV's. Drives me insane!!Well of COURSE someone is going to be kind to those who know him best. That's WHY they know him best!!How did he treat those who knew him least??Actually, I think Mormonism is a high-jacked version of Christianity.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 If you're trying to use the Old Testament to justify BY's statement I'm not buying it.Just checking to see if you're holding to a double standard. Apparently you also disbelieve the Bible, so at least we know a little more where you are coming from.*i stand corrected. dbl standard it is.
Scottie Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Actually, I think Mormonism is a high-jacked version of Christianity.That didn't really answer my question. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and God?
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Yeah, this is a favorite of the apologists. Every conceivable horrific act was committed at some point in the Bible by Gods command. If LDS prophets do these horrific acts, it's okay because we have precedence.It has less to do with that and more to do with double standards and trying to help people apply the same standards to their own beliefs that they apply to the beliefs of others. I swear this has been explained to you several times.We need not justify Brighamâ??s words, but we neednâ??t also demand he match a standard that isnâ??t necessarily supported by the New Testament.*if we believe the NT, most especially.
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