The Pre-existence, No Beginning...

[changed]

I am new here, so forgive me for starting up a topic that may have already been done to deathâ?¦ This is for those of different faiths who do not believe that our spirits exist without beginning.

I am a convert to the LDS church. The big light bulb moment for me was around the plan of salvation, and more specifically, our pre-existence. Previously I saw God as being a bit of a monster who created evilâ?¦

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

What is the origin of evil? Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not? And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create? If you think God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

For those who are members,

please post everything you know about the pre-existence

JS said that "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."

Do you think that we came from a "glorious" state, or do you think it was a big chaotic mess that needed to be cleaned up? I guess God can see the future - glory in potential at least if not a glorious beginning? I mean there is a reason that we have to be refined and reformed right? It seems like we would not need to have our hearts changed if our hearts were in the right place to begin with... JMO.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

interesting link

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/5_creator.html

"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for."

Another interesting link

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...=G166&t=KJV

eternal - as in "eternal life" - part of definition is "no beginning" ie, we cannot have "eternal life" if we had a beginning...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few scripts on the subject...

Our birth was not our beginningâ?¦

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We existed before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Job 38: 4 Where wast thouâ?¦

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We are sons and daughters of God â??

Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

we were there â?? we shouted for joy.

Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

â??returnâ? means coming to a state that we have previously been to â?? not â??comeâ? as if it were our first experience, but â??returnâ?

Zech 12:1 â?¦the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

He â??formedâ? our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our â??Heavenlyâ? Father because He is literally the father of our spiritâ?¦ spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.

There was a war in heaven in which Satan sought to take away our free agency. 1/3 of the formed spirits followed Satan and became fallen angels, never to receive a body. The other 2/3 â?? us â?? chose to come here. We are here because we chose to come here.

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

More details on this war..

Moses 4: 1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, sayingâ??Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto meâ??Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

We chose to come to Earthâ?¦

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The only script I have seen that people use to say God created everything is:

John 1:

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

But this does not say God and Jesus were alone, nor does it say they created everything -

â??That was madeâ? â?? IF it was made, He made it. However, some things are not madeâ?¦

Also, every"thing" not "everyone"... people are not "things".

also, does not say made out of nothing... it is possible to make something out of something else...

[Richard]

As to John one, that is very Good.

Here is another from Colossians 1

15

6 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16

For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.

17

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

18

He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.

19

For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,

20

and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.

I am Catholic, hope you donâ??t mind. I will answer the first question, but let the LDS answer the second. Itâ??s more their territory. I am one who believes God has always known me but at a point of time as we know it created me and gave me His spirit to Find Him and choose Him.

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

What is the origin of evil?

First I want to give you this. Itâ??s the best writing I have ever found on evil and suffering.

http://utahmission.com/pages/Why_suffering.html Let me know what you think of it.

An angel that was made good decided he wanted Jesusâ?? position, His power etcâ?¦He wanted to be god in His own right. So the first sin was a jealousy of Jesus / God. The angel told them they could be a god. This angel wants us all to be on his side so he temps mankind by telling them that God lied to them about the tree in the garden. â??Did God really tell you not to eat from it he saidâ? So mankind being tempted acted on this temptation and brought death to all of us. Why? I beleive because they were not god and this is what Gods creation does, they learn the hard way as do I. We inherit this fallen nature. Sin is disobedience to God. God gives mankind freewill to either choose Him as their source of life or themselves as the source of life. The second choice brings death because one cannot live without life itself, which would be God.

Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not?

I know that God is creator of all that is. He allows evil from us (DISOBEDIENCE) because He does not make us his puppet or His slave. I cannot answer why there is evil but I do know that God can always turn it into a good. I believe Satan hates this. I mean he allowed His own Eternal Son to be crucified and turned it into the best thing for each of us. He crushed Satan on the Cross for all of us.

And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create?

I cannot imagine God not creating everything that is through Jesus. It is very scriptural. What kind of God would we be talking about that is not creator of all things? I canâ??t wrap my little brain around that.

If you think God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

I see Him as Love itself. 1 Corinthians chapter 13 pretty much nails it. I do not believe that He has ever sent one soul to hell. The soul chooses not to be with God. Have you ever known someone who when you speak about Jesus they become repulsed, they do not want to hear about Him? Some can actually be repulsed by God in the end. Hard to believe but true. He is all loving. I know this to be true. Our whole faith has been set up to live in His mercy,.. teaching us to forgive and to be forgiven. He as you know even asks us to love our enemies. I love Mormons and I am Catholicâ?¦Why, even after all that has been said? Because God loves them just as much as He loves me. He plays no favorites. When you can know this, you see each other in a whole new light. How could I hate another when God loves them? Gods loVe and mercy allows for all to turn to Him even at the hour of our death. But the door of the ark does shut sooner or later.

Thatâ??s my take on it.

God Bless

www.utahmission.com

[Uncle Dale]

...

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

What is the origin of evil? Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil)

or not? And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create? If you think

God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

...

Is there a pre-existence?

I'm one of those who is willing to consider the notion of some sort of "pre-existence," but, at the same

time, I do not feel that such doctrines form any part of the first principles of the Gospel.

What is the "origin of evil?" -- I'd say that it is inherent in the existences of opposites. As soon as there

was the potential for something "right" or "good" in the Universe, there was the potential for bad and evil.

When did that potential become actuality? Some folks would say it happened when Satan first began

to convince a third of the "host of heaven" to follow after him, instead of God Almighty. But I view that

explanation as a myth.

Did God "create everything?"

My answer is that all "things" indeed do owe their existence to God. In that sense, even lifeless things,

or concepts, or ideals, or potentials are "creatures" of God.

How do I "see" God?

In terms of spiritual interaction with Heavenly Father which I cannot even begin to explain here.

Uncle Dale

[Richard]

Uncle Dan Relpied

How do I "see" God?

In terms of spiritual interaction with Heavenly Father which I cannot even begin to explain here.

You seem to be a wise Man Dan

And I believe you know that your wisdom is also from God.

Rich

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dan Relpied

How do I "see" God?

In terms of spiritual interaction with Heavenly Father which I cannot even begin to explain here.

You seem to be a wise Man Dan

And I believe you know that your wisdom is also from God.

Rich

It seems to me that all wisdom comes from God.

The trick is, knowing what is wisdom and what is not.

UD

[Richard]

It seems to me that all wisdom comes from God.

The trick is, knowing what is wisdom and what is not.

UD

Agreed,

we should pray more, listen and be honest with the answers, I fall short many times.

[changed]

Thanks so much for the replies!

As to John one, that is very Good.

Here is another from Colossians 1

15 6 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.

17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

18 He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.

19 For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,

20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.

Do you use strongs? I love going back to the original wordsâ?¦ doing a bit of semantics on defining the word â??createâ?..

1:16:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2936&t=KJV

original word translated as â??createâ?

1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island

a) to found a city, colony, state

2) to create

a) of God creating the worlds

b.) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform

another word translated as create:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...H1254&t=KJV

1) to create, shape, form

a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)

1) of heaven and earth

2) of individual man

3) of new conditions and circumstances

4) of transformations

b.) (Niphal) to be created

1) of heaven and earth

2) of birth

3) of something new

4) of miracles

c) (Piel)

1) to cut down

2) to cut out

2) to be fat

a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

To me, I could easily use the words â??form, organize, cut, transform, shape, mold, influenceâ? instead

of â??createâ?.

16 For by him were all things â??formedâ?, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were â??formedâ? by him, and for him:

I have no doubt that everything in the universe has been influenced by God. That His presence has changed everything. So yes, this is a very good scripture to show that God has had an impact on everything around Himâ?¦ but I still donâ??t see anything saying that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing. That out of pure nothingness, God created everything. Instead, it still looks to me like forming, organizing, not creating out of nothingnessâ?¦

I am Catholic, hope you donâ??t mind.

Not at all! My fatherâ??s side of the family is Catholic.

I will answer the first question, but let the LDS answer the second. Itâ??s more their territory. I am one who believes God has always known me

I agree, God has always known usâ?¦

but at a point of time as we know it created me and gave me His spirit to Find Him and choose Him.

choice, agency. That is another big part of it.

I donâ??t understand how agency can be createdâ?¦ It seems like if it is 100% created, everything can be traced back to the creator, and so it is not really agencyâ?¦ To have an independent will, part of you has to be independentâ?¦ I donâ??t see any other way of having a free independent willâ?¦

DC 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

What is the origin of evil?

First I want to give you this. Itâ??s the best writing I have ever found on evil and suffering.

http://utahmission.com/pages/Why_suffering.html Let me know what you think of it.

Thanks for the link.

I agree, refined in the fire, pain can transform us. I agree with this but only to a certain extentâ?¦ Do you believe in hell? In an eternal hell? Not nice to think of, butâ?¦ it seems not all pain transforms usâ?¦. Not all battles are won. Sure, free agency, canâ??t force everyone to heaven etcâ?¦ but creating a being who ends up in hell, that seems like an imperfect creation leading to an imperfect creatorâ?¦ I still canâ??t see a perfect creator unless this mess around us was not all His doingâ?¦

An angel that was made good decided he wanted Jesusâ?? position, His power etcâ?¦He wanted to be god in His own right. So the first sin was a jealousy of Jesus / God. The angel told them they could be a god. This angel wants us all to be on his side so he temps mankind by telling them that God lied to them about the tree in the garden. â??Did God really tell you not to eat from it he saidâ? So mankind being tempted acted on this temptation and brought death to all of us. Why? I beleive because they were not god and this is what Gods creation does, they learn the hard way as do I. We inherit this fallen nature. Sin is disobedience to God. God gives mankind freewill to either choose Him as their source of life or themselves as the source of life. The second choice brings death because one cannot live without life itself, which would be God.

Yes, jealously was part of it. I think it was also about power â?? Satan promised to give His followers a life free from pain in exchange for taking away their free agencyâ?¦ There is pain involved of course in Satanâ??s plan. I believe the fall was necessary for our progression. University of life, experience is needed to teach us. God does not make mistakes, knew what would happen, there was a reason for placing the tree in the garden.

Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not?

I know that God is creator of all that is. He allows evil from us (DISOBEDIENCE) because He does not make us his puppet or His slave. I cannot answer why there is evil but I do know that God can always turn it into a good. I believe Satan hates this. I mean he allowed His own Eternal Son to be crucified and turned it into the best thing for each of us. He crushed Satan on the Cross for all of us.

And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create?

I cannot imagine God not creating everything that is through Jesus. It is very scriptural. What kind of God would we be talking about that is not creator of all things?

A God that cannot be blamed for all thingsâ?¦.

I think it would take more power to transform an independent being with free will than to transform something that you made from the beginningâ?¦

I canâ??t wrap my little brain around that.

If you think God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

I see Him as Love itself. 1 Corinthians chapter 13 pretty much nails it. I do not believe that He has ever sent one soul to hell. The soul chooses not to be with God. Have you ever known someone who when you speak about Jesus they become repulsed, they do not want to hear about Him? Some can actually be repulsed by God in the end. Hard to believe but true. He is all loving. I know this to be true. Our whole faith has been set up to live in His mercy,.. teaching us to forgive and to be forgiven. He as you know even asks us to love our enemies. I love Mormons and I am Catholicâ?¦Why, even after all that has been said? Because God loves them just as much as He loves me. He plays no favorites. When you can know this, you see each other in a whole new light. How could I hate another when God loves them? Gods loVe and mercy allows for all to turn to Him even at the hour of our death. But the door of the ark does shut sooner or later.

Thatâ??s my take on it.

God Bless

www.utahmission.com

Let me end with this question...

Can love be created?

[changed]

Is there a pre-existence?

I'm one of those who is willing to consider the notion of some sort of "pre-existence," but, at the same time, I do not feel that such doctrines form any part of the first principles of the Gospel.

Glad to hear that you are open minded. I don't think you should be required to be LDS to believe in a pre-existence, although I am not sure of others who do talk about it... In any event, the pre-existence should not be any harder to swallow than a post-existenceâ?¦ To me it is a big deal because it means we chose to come here, it means God did not create evil, it means we have the potential of being eternal beings, the potential of eternal lifeâ?¦.

What is the "origin of evil?" -- I'd say that it is inherent in the existences of opposites. As soon as there was the potential for something "right" or "good" in the Universe, there was the potential for bad and evil.

I agree. The theory of relativity, some things do not exist without a reference frame. Good is a relative term. Good does not exist without evilâ?¦

kind of like velocity. A single object alone in a void can never experience velocity. For a single object, velocity is not zero, it is not undefined, it literally does not existâ?¦ As much as we would like it, good does not exist except in comparison to something elseâ?¦ no mountain tops without the valleys belowâ?¦ just one flat plain, or mountains and valleysâ?¦ that is the choiceâ?¦

link - explains why Velocity does not exist without opposition...

http://www.goaskgrandpa.com/sample04.htm

2 Nephi 2:11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he asought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

When did that potential become actuality? Some folks would say it happened when Satan first began

to convince a third of the "host of heaven" to follow after him, instead of God Almighty. But I view that

explanation as a myth.

I think good and evil are as old as God. The question:

1. Does God do it because it is good?

2. Or is it good because God does it?

#1 puts good outside the creation of God. #2 makes good subjectiveâ?¦

I donâ??t think good is subjectiveâ?¦

Did God "create everything?"

My answer is that all "things" indeed do owe their existence to God. In that sense, even lifeless things,

or concepts, or ideals, or potentials are "creatures" of God.

How do I "see" God?

In terms of spiritual interaction with Heavenly Father which I cannot even begin to explain here.

Uncle Dale

the difference between â??eternalâ? and â??eternal lifeâ?â?¦ I think God brings life to what otherwise would just be a stagnant unchanging eternal entityâ?¦ I think God influences everything, nothing can exist without feeling His presence, without being aware of Himâ?¦ To know anything or anyone in any amount is to be changed by themâ?¦

I have an uncle Dale in my familyâ?¦ you arenâ??t from Colorado by change RU??? Just curiousâ?¦ sometimes it is a small world

6 degrees of separationâ?¦

http://www.philmug.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=39227

[Uncle Dale]

...I don't think you should be required to be LDS to believe in a pre-existence,

although I am not sure of others who do talk about it...

Evidently the English Puritans gave the tenet some consideration -- see Milton's "Paradise Lost."

The artist-poet William Blake seems to have thought about such things -- see his writings.

The subject used to come up occasionally in Reorganized LDS scripture study classes --

but, as I recall, there was no authoritative doctrine from the leaders of the church.

As I said -- I don't think such stuff is especially important. I do not worry about a pre-existence,

nor about a "world to come;" I have enough to keep me busy in this life.

I think good and evil are as old as God. The question:

1. Does God do it because it is good?

2. Or is it good because God does it?

#1 puts good outside the creation of God. #2 makes good subjectiveâ?¦

I donâ??t think good is subjectiveâ?¦

the difference between â??eternalâ? and â??eternal lifeâ?â?¦ I think God brings life to what otherwise would just be a stagnant unchanging eternal entityâ?¦ I think God influences everything, nothing can exist without feeling His presence, without being aware of Himâ?¦ To know anything or anyone in any amount is to be changed by themâ?¦

Such questions never seem to find any perfect answers.

Is it "good" for a wolf to kill a sheep?

Is it "right" for me to take apples from my neighbor's tree, if I am starving?

If the tree on my neighbor's property grew up from a seed I dropped there, is it really his tree?

To the extent that there is "right" and "wrong" in this world, I think that the terms only

apply to intelligent beings (or how intelligent beings interact with other living things).

I have an uncle Dale in my familyâ?¦ you arenâ??t from Colorado by change RU??? Just curiousâ?¦ sometimes it is a small world

6 degrees of separationâ?¦

http://www.philmug.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=39227

I live in Hawaii -- haven't spent more than a handful of days on the US mainland for nearly 30 years now.

UD

[sean0scott]

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

I think pre-existence is a misnomer. Eternal matter has, by definition, always existed therefore there is no "pre-eternity" or "pre-existince"

I say pre-earth, or pre-mortal... Then again, I am a nerd so take this with a grain of salt.

What is the origin of evil?

I think this has been answered quite well by smarter people than my self. Like you quoted, God found himself in the midst of intelligences. There are coeternal beings, coeternal truths. Evil is coeternal with good; there is no origin.

Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not?

He organized everything I know of.

And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create?

See above coeternal truths... matter, agency, intelligences (which some take to mean matter)

For those who are members,

please post everything you know about the pre-existence

Everything I know about the premortal life I learned before nursery. I've since forgotten most of it

JS said that "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."

Do you think that we came from a "glorious" state, or do you think it was a big chaotic mess that needed to be cleaned up?

I believe in glorious messes. But there are certainly degrees of glory; this "mess" was probably not as glorious as, say, the sun, the moon or the stars...

[changed]

Evidently the English Puritans gave the tenet some consideration -- see Milton's "Paradise Lost."

The artist-poet William Blake seems to have thought about such things -- see his writings.

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:

The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,

Hath had elsewhere its setting,

And cometh from afar:

Not in entire forgetfulness,

And not in utter nakedness,

But trailing clouds of glory do we come

From God, who is our home:

Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

- William Wordsworth

http://www.bartleby.com/101/536.html

The subject used to come up occasionally in Reorganized LDS scripture study classes --

but, as I recall, there was no authoritative doctrine from the leaders of the church.

really? RLDS don't teach this as doctrine?... that is sad.

As I said -- I don't think such stuff is especially important. I do not worry about a pre-existence,

nor about a "world to come;" I have enough to keep me busy in this life.

the trouble with not having a goal is that you can spend your life running up and down the field and never cross the goal line. - Monson...

treasure map to guide you to your eternal happiness...

1. Learn from the past.

2. Prepare for the future.

3. Live in the present.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi..._&hideNav=1

I really don't understand how anyone can say it is not important... I mean, those are the big questions in life, where did we come from? Where are we going to? It answers "What is the point of life" to know the goal of what we can work towards... know the past to know what we have to overcome...

Such questions never seem to find any perfect answers.

Is it "good" for a wolf to kill a sheep? No.

Is it "right" for me to take apples from my neighbor's tree, if I am starving? No. Stealing is never right, go ask him for it.

If the tree on my neighbor's property grew up from a seed I dropped there, is it really his tree? Yes, your fault for littering

To the extent that there is "right" and "wrong" in this world, I think that the terms only

apply to intelligent beings (or how intelligent beings interact with other living things).

I think only satan would want to blur the difference between what is right and wrong... right is right, wrong is wrong...

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call aevil bgood, and good evil; that put cdarkness for dlight, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I live in Hawaii -- haven't spent more than a handful of days on the US mainland for nearly 30 years now.

UD

I wish I lived in Hawaii

I think pre-existence is a misnomer. Eternal matter has, by definition, always existed therefore there is no "pre-eternity" or "pre-existince"

I say pre-earth, or pre-mortal... Then again, I am a nerd so take this with a grain of salt.

good point.

I think this has been answered quite well by smarter people than my self. Like you quoted, God found himself in the midst of intelligences. There are coeternal beings, coeternal truths. Evil is coeternal with good; there is no origin.

He organized everything I know of.

If it is "organized" He did it... However if it is disordered, chaotic... then He did not do it...

See above coeternal truths... matter, agency, intelligences (which some take to mean matter)

really? got a link?

Everything I know about the premortal life I learned before nursery. I've since forgotten most of it

LOL!

I believe in glorious messes. But there are certainly degrees of glory; this "mess" was probably not as glorious as, say, the sun, the moon or the stars...

I think the glory lies in the potential... why kids are so glorious, blank slate, sky is wide open, endless possibilities... Then you grow up, make mistakes, close doors, limit your potential... So, Ok, glorious mess before everyone starts making mistakes

[soren]

I am new here, so forgive me for starting up a topic that may have already been done to deathâ?¦ This is for those of different faiths who do not believe that our spirits exist without beginning.

I am a convert to the LDS church. The big light bulb moment for me was around the plan of salvation, and more specifically, our pre-existence. Previously I saw God as being a bit of a monster who created evilâ?¦

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

What is the origin of evil? Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not? And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create? If you think God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

Genesis tells us that God created all things good. Before sin came into the word evil did not exist in it, yet the world was know to be good, without comparing good to evil as a correlative. Evil cannot be created in the proper sense of "create," because creation brings things into existence, yet existence as such is a good thing. Evil is the corruption and disintegration of things away from the order in which they were created by God. This destruction of the created order is brought on by the free choice of God's creatures only, not by God himself, who neither creates evil nor needs evil to preexist to propagate goodness.

[Uncle Dale]

....

I think only satan would want to blur the difference between what is right and wrong

....

Well then, as I am not Lucifer, that fact alone appears to let me off the hook.

Uncle "see my sig line" Dale

[Glenn101]

Genesis tells us that God created all things good. Before sin came into the word evil did not exist in it, yet the world was know to be good, without comparing good to evil as a correlative. Evil cannot be created in the proper sense of "create," because creation brings things into existence, yet existence as such is a good thing. Evil is the corruption and disintegration of things away from the order in which they were created by God. This destruction of the created order is brought on by the free choice of God's creatures only, not by God himself, who neither creates evil nor needs evil to preexist to propagate goodness.

Evil, as an entity does not actually "exist". However is was present in the spirit world when Lucifer began to thinl evil thoughts and perform evil acts, drawing away a third of our spirit brothers and sister swith him. God did not create evil. He did create people who became evil, of their own choosing.

Glenn

[changed]

Well then, as I am not Lucifer, that fact alone appears to let me off the hook.

Uncle "see my sig line" Dale

I did not mean to call you lucifer LOL! sorry if it came off that way just saying that it is something that he would do...

"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be,

and often is, right under another." -- Joseph Smith

I agree with JS - example, some things best left until after you get married ... not a good idea to let a 4yo drive a car... Is driving a car good or bad? depends on how old and responsible you are etc. etc... that is not really making the line fuzzy though... You just have to clarify the question, not "is it good to drive a car" has to be " is it god for a 4yo to drive a car" (No) etc. I suppose some things don't have a right or wrong - brown shoelaces or black? no right/wrong answer... but right does exist, and wrong does exist is all I was trying to say... some people try to say that right and wrong don't exist...

Evil, as an entity does not actually "exist".

see, this is the sort of thing... evil does not exist? Of course it does!

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is noneâ??and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 28:22)

no hell, no devil, no evil.... these things do exist.

However is was present in the spirit world when Lucifer began to thinl evil thoughts and perform evil acts, drawing away a third of our spirit brothers and sister swith him. God did not create evil. He did create people who became evil, of their own choosing.

Glenn

If I create a robot, program it, and the robot goes and starts killing a bunch of people... who is at fault? me, or the robot?

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Evil, either moral or natural, is traceable to the choices of other autonomous agents (the Devil) and recalcitrant properties of chaotic matter.

Latter-day Saints reject ex nihilo and affirm that there are actualities that are coeternal with God. These coeternal actualities include intelligences (perceived as primal selves or persons), matter (and energy), and laws and principles (the properties and relations of matter and intelligences). God is not the [creator] of evil.

God has power to add, move, or remove agents, matter and laws. Yet, it is aparent God does not prevent natural evil from occuring or eliminate agents of evil. Which seems at odds with a perfectly good being wishing to maximize the good; unless evil were a necessary condition of achieving the greatest good, a perfectly good being would allow it. Thus it is, that opposition and temptation is a necessary conditions for the expression of morally significant freedom, causing the development of genuinely righteous personalities (2 Ne. 2:11-16; Moses 6:55).

[Hoops22]

.

Latter-day Saints reject ex nihilo

Then you must reject Genesis. Which is referenced in the NT more than any other OT work - I believe.

and affirm that there are actualities that are coeternal with God. These coeternal actualities include intelligences (perceived as primal selves or persons), matter (and energy), and laws and principles (the properties and relations of matter and intelligences).

Which is why, I suspect, you don't regard God as omnipotent.

God is not the [creator] of evil.

God created all things.

God has power to add, move, or remove agents, matter and laws.

Yes. And more.

Yet, it is aparent God does not prevent natural evil from occuring or eliminate agents of evil.

That is not apparent at all.

Which seems at odds with a perfectly good being wishing to maximize the good;

All things work together for the glory of God.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

The most respected translation of Genesis is by E.A. Speiser in the Anchor Bible series. Speiser translates Genesis 1:1-3 as follows:

"When God set about to create heaven and earth - the world being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas...- God said, "Let there be light." And there was light."

There was matter that pre-existed God's creative activity that followed. The earth existed, but was in a state of chaos (without form) and there were seas of water when God began to create. As Speiser says: "To be sure the present interpretation precludes the view that creation accounts in Genesis say nothing about coexistent matter."

God is "omnipotent", so since we know there are realities that are coeternal, our definition of omnipotence is not the metaphysical power to bring about any state of affairs absolutely. Its the power to bring about any state of affairs consistent with the natures of coeternal realities.

Since moral evil is caused by autonomous agents such as Satan, if God in his metaphysical omnipotence created Satan to be evil, then he is omniresponsible for all evil that occurs. Rather, Satan is evil because he fell into that state.

[Hoops22]

The most respected translation of Genesis is by E.A. Speiser in the Anchor Bible series. Speiser translates Genesis 1:1-3 as follows:

Even if this were true...

"

When God set about to create heaven and earth - the world being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas...- God said, "Let there be light." And there was light."

Gen 1:1 uses "created" as in from nothing.

There was matter that pre-existed God's creative activity that followed.

No.

The earth existed, but was in a state of chaos (without form) and there were seas of water when God began to create. As Speiser says: "To be sure the present interpretation precludes the view that creation accounts in Genesis say nothing about coexistent matter."

Gen tells us that it was created from nothing into a state of chaos (your word). It was from there that it was "fashioned".

God is "omnipotent", so since we know there are realities that are coeternal,

We know no such thing.

our definition of omnipotence is not the metaphysical power to bring about any state of affairs absolutely. Its the power to bring about any state of affairs consistent with the natures of coeternal realities.

No. It is existence apart from all of His creation.

Since moral evil is caused by autonomous agents such as Satan, if God in his metaphysical omnipotence created Satan to be evil, then he is omniresponsible for all evil that occurs. Rather, Satan is evil because he fell into that state.

Yes, He created All things. I must believe that evil is included in that - I have no reason to believe otherwise. But, that does not make Him responsible for the evil that I do.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Gen 1:1 uses "created" as in from nothing.

You're engaging in the Root Fallacy. One must assume beforehand that the word create must mean to create ex nihilo in order to arrive at this conclusion. The Biblical usage of the word "create" has no single meaning, it can mean; to form, to frame, to organize, to found (a colony), to build (a city), etc, etc, etc.

Gen tells us that it was created from nothing into a state of chaos (your word). It was from there that it was "fashioned".

No, the waters are never said to be created anywhere in the Old Testament.

Proverbs 8:24 it expressly states that before God created the earth, (thus no water on earth), God "prepared the heavens" and he set "a compass upon the face of the depth", God prepares the already existent waters by organizing them through the process of measuring them and plumbing their depths, and was before he created the earth (Proverbs 8:26â??27).

Even Apostle Peter seems aware that the waters pre-existed the creation, in 2 Peter 3:5 God created "the heaven and earth" by "forming" them out of water.

Yes, He created All things. I must believe that evil is included in that

Why must you? When John said "all" things in an inclusive sense, the final phrase, γ νετο ο δ ν γ γονεν, translated "nothing made that was made," limits the scope of the creative power to the order of the created and implies that whatever is not made was not made by him.

To say, all things that were created, were created by God and does not address the issue of things that may not have been created. I don't see how you have a mandate to believe God created these 'hypothetically' uncreated things ("evil").

[Hoops22]

Yo

u're engaging in the Root Fallacy. One must assume beforehand that the word create must mean to create ex nihilo in order to arrive at this conclusion.

Well, no, I don't think so. "Bara" is also used "to create out of nothing" in Rom 4:17 & Heb 11:3. In addition, "bara" is used in the OT ONLY with God as the subject. In contrast, "asah" is used after verse 1. Why the different verbs when you are claiming they mean essentially the same thing?

The Biblical usage of the word "create" has no single meaning, it can mean; to form, to frame, to organize, to found (a colony), to build (a city), etc, etc, etc.

If you are referring to "bara" then, we can know it's single meaning by it's use in other verses. And it means to creat out of nothing.

No, the waters are never said to be created anywhere in the Old Testament.

No, you are assuming that God did not create out of nothing. The waters were created when He created out of nothing "the heavens and the earth".

Proverbs 8:24 it expressly states that before God created the earth, (thus no water on earth), God "prepared the heavens" and he set "a compass upon the face of the depth", God prepares the already existent waters by organizing them through the process of measuring them and plumbing their depths, and was before he created the earth (Proverbs 8:26â??27).

Let's look at what Proverbs actually reads

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, , [c]

before his deeds of old;

WISDOM

23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,

from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,

when there were no springs abounding with water;

Before His creation of "heaven and earth" within which is water.

Even Apostle Peter seems aware that the waters pre-existed the creation, in 2 Peter 3:5 God created "the heaven and earth" by "forming" them out of water.

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed

Heaven and earth in Gen 1 is the universe. Peter is referring to the expanse between atmospheric water and waters of the ground.

Why must you? When John said "all" things in an inclusive sense, the final phrase, γ νετο ο δ ν γ γονεν, translated "nothing made that was made," limits the scope of the creative power to the order of the created and implies that whatever is not made was not made by him.

No, it implies that He made all things. If could be created "out of nothing" - it was.

[changed]

Then you must reject Genesis. Which is referenced in the NT more than any other OT work - I believe.

There are actually 2 different accounts of the creation in Gen, Chapter 1 gives one account, chapter 2 gives another account in which the creative days are given a different order. Here is chapter 2, in which Adam is created (7) before the garden of Eden (vs 8 ). Atheists use this as one example where the Bible contradicts itself. I see it as describing two different creative periods, one in heaven â??the generations of the heavensâ? and one on earth - seems pretty clear that chapter 2 is discussing formation/organization in heaven, before spirits were placed in the Earthâ?¦ see vs 5. â?¦ first He forms Adamâ??s spirit, then He places the spirit in a formed body in Edenâ?¦

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 3:5)

so intelligences into spirits into physical bodies.

Which is why, I suspect, you don't regard God as omnipotent.

IF it is possible, God can do it, however, the impossible exists, you can't create something that is eternal as eternal = no beginning.

Can God make a rock larger than He can move? Can God make a square circle? That the impossible exists does not mean God is not omnipotent. It means impossible exists.

God created all things.

Wow - God created evil? I guess we don't believe in the same God... My God did not make anything that is evil.

Yes, He created All things. I must believe that evil is included in that - I have no reason to believe otherwise. But, that does not make Him responsible for the evil that I do.

If God created evil, then it would make Him responsible for evil.

Rom 4:17 & Heb 11:3.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b...p;t=KJV#conc/17

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

in other words, The pot did not exist until the clay was formed.

Does it mean the pot was made out of nothingness? No.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

the potter created the pot not the clay. The pot was made out of something, something is being formed.

As for the Hebrews script, take it in context.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Do you have to see it for it to exist? Let's "hope" not.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

not made of things which do appear = made of spirits. Most people cannot see spirits, spirits are not made out of the same stuff that our body is made out of. Spirits exist, does not say created out of nothingness, just says created out of something that we cannot see.

There is nothing in the Bible about making something out of nothing... sorry.

God only makes what is good. If it is not good, you can be 100% sure it did not come from God.

[Hoops22]

There are actually 2 different accounts of the creation in Gen, Chapter 1 gives one account, chapter 2 gives another account in which the creative days are given a different order.

Actually, no, there's not. This is called by OT scholars The Law of ReOccurence (or something, I'm sure someone here can correct me). The first passage Gen 1 - gives us an event in chron order. The second immediately follows the first and elaborates on only a portion of the first.

5

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 3:5)

No comment

so intelligences into spirits into physical bodies.

Your claim for this is POG alone.

IF it is possible, God can do it, however, the impossible exists, you can't create something that is eternal as eternal = no beginning.

Who says? In any event, this earth will pass away "and all things become new again."

Can God make a rock larger than He can move? Can God make a square circle?

Please. Parlor games.

That the impossible exists does not mean God is not omnipotent.

This is true. God can not do something that is contrary to His nature. But God is omnipotent. Which means there can be only ONE God.

Wow - God created evil? I guess we don't believe in the same God...

No, I don't think we do.

My God did not make anything that is evil.

He created beings with free will. Free will means evil exists.

If God created evil, then it would make Him responsible for evil.

Not at all.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

in other words, The pot did not exist until the clay was formed.

Does it mean the pot was made out of nothingness? No.

The pot? No. But the elements of the pot were created from nothing. Gen 1:1

[

i]Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

the potter created the pot not the clay. The pot was made out of something, something is being formed.

This is not a reference to Gen 1

As for the Hebrews script, take it in context.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Do you have to see it for it to exist? Let's "hope" not.

Not sure how this relates.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

not made of things which do appear = made of spirits. Most people cannot see spirits, spirits are not made out of the same stuff that our body is made out of. Spirits exist, does not say created out of nothingness, just says created out of something that we cannot see.

Yes. Created. Out of nothing. From unseen material.

There is nothing in the Bible about making something out of nothing... sorry.

Gen 1:1

[changed]

He created beings with free will.

again, independent free will cannot be created. If it is created, it is not independent of the creator, and is therefore not free will. If you are 100% created, everything can be traced back to the creator, which means no free will. Just doing what you were programmed to do.

Not sure how this relates.

Yes. Created. Out of nothing. From unseen material.

you are saying that unseen = nothingness

If you can't see it then it does not exist?

By saying this you are saying you have no faith.

Hebrews 11:1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11 is about all of the things that do exist, but are not seen by us right now. It is about faith.

[johnny]

changed

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

Man's spirit did not pre-exist, the Lord forms his spirit within him. The Spirit of God makes us. The soul is made. After the Lord breathed the breath of life into first man he became a living soul . God gives us His spirit, the spirit of God is in us. At death, the spirit of God returns to God who gave it.

Man did not exist before the foundation of the earth. Before the first man was created, all the angels or sons of God were created when God commanded. The angels shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth. The first man is formed after the foundations of the earth because man is formed from the dust of the earth.

Prophets are not prepared to become leaders on earth while they were still spirits in heaven. The Lord makes us and forms us from the womb. Prophets are sanctified before they come forth from the womb, they are filled with the Holy Ghost from their mother's womb. God is all knowing and has foreknowledge, the prophet John the Baptist was known and ordained a prophet from his mother's womb and before he was formed in the belly.

What is the origin of evil? Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not? And if God did not create â??everythingâ? what do you believe He did not create? If you think God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

God created all things, He is omnipotent. God creates evil and makes peace, He has infinite understanding. God created the angel Satan with with a command, Satan was not born of heavenly parents. Satan was good in the beginning. God permits his creatures like Satan to sin.

God did not create man to end up in hell, he predestined men to become adopted children of God, chosen in Christ to be holy. The fall was not a necessary step in the plan of life, the fall was a step away from the tree of life. The fall was not a great blessing to all of us, the fall brought condemnation to all of us. Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

Men have a choice to do evil or do good. Sin and death entered into the world by one man that sinned. From the beginning God had a plan of salvation, He is all knowing. God is rich in mercy, according to his mercy he saves us. God's plan of salvation is to destroy the works of the devil. After Christ ascension their is a war in heaven and the expulsion of Satan from heaven.

To me it is a big deal because it means we chose to come here, it means God did not create evil, it means we have the potential of being eternal beings, the potential of eternal lifeâ?¦.

God did create evil, see below

• Isa.45 ([7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.)
  

There is nothing in the Bible about making something out of nothing... sorry.

- In the beginning, the unfinished heaven and earth were created from things that were not

- On the first day, the earth that was without form and void.

- On the second day, the earth was formed and established.

The worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. God is from everlasting to everlasting. Christ (the Word of God) is before all things, he is the beginning of the creation of God.