The Pre-existence, No Beginning...

[Lachoneus]

"Bara" is also used "to create out of nothing" in Rom 4:17 & Heb 11:3.

Silly.

Bara is never used to mean "to create out of nothing." I find no such definition in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. The idea of creation "out of nothing" is purely a religious interpretation.

Romans and Hebrews were written in Greek, not Hebrew.

In addition, "bara" is used in the OT ONLY with God as the subject.

False.

Joshuah 17:15, 18; 1 Samuel 2:29.

[johnny]

Lachoneus

Bara is never used to mean "to create out of nothing." I find no such definition in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. The idea of creation "out of nothing" is purely a religious interpretation.

Gen 1:1 says"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.

[Lachoneus]

Gen 1:1 says"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

As I said, the idea of creation "out of nothing" is a religious interpretation, not one derived from the lexicon.

the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself;

That is not stated anywhere in the quoted words.

( . . . Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject).

As I previously stated and cited specific verses to the contrary, this is false.

The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.

That is not stated anywhere in the quoted words.

[johnny]

Lachoneus

As I said, the idea of creation "out of nothing" is a religious interpretation, not one derived from the lexicon.

For apostolic Christians it is not simply a matter of religious interpretation, it is what scripture reveals and what the early Christians taught (see below):

• 2Mac.7 ([22] I cannot tell how ye came into my womb: for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you; [23] But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake. [28] I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.)
  
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• Hermas "First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing." Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20
  
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• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  

[Mudcat]

Hello Changed,

A question for those who do not believe in the pre-existence,

What is the origin of evil?

In the most ultimate sense, the origin of evil is God. All things came from God, he created them knowing they would become evil, so God made evil.... there really isn't much way around it.

Do you believe that God created everything (everything including evil) or not?

I think God made all things. Even those thing that rebelled against him.

If you think God - directly or indirectly - created evil... how do you see God? Do you see Him as 100% loving/merciful etc.?

He is infinitely merciful among other things.

The only script I have seen that people use to say God created everything is:

John 1:

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

But this does not say God and Jesus were alone, nor does it say they created everything -

“That was made” – IF it was made, He made it. However, some things are not made…

Also, every"thing" not "everyone"... people are not "things".

Emphasis mine, regarding John 1:3. This word is also rendered as man or person. So I don't suppose I am really seeing the point here.

You seem to be saying since it says 'any thing' it doesn't mean 'anyone'. The word seems to mean both, but I am not a scholar.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Lachoneus

For apostolic Christians it is not simply a matter of religious interpretation, it is what scripture reveals and what the early Christians taught (see below):

• 2Mac.7 ([22] I cannot tell how ye came into my womb: for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you; [23] But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake. [28] I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.)
  
• -
  
• Hermas "First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing." Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  

Right, Irenaeus, who was the one who formulated the doctrine of ex nihilo, and he did not get it from the Bible, because he did not know of any verse within the Bible that supported the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, because it doesn't. Neither the Bible nor any (non-Gnostic since Basilides, a Gnostic philosopher was probably the first to espose ex Nihilo) Christian or Jew until after Justin Martyr espoused ex Nihilo.

The one reason that its believed that 2 Maccabees teaches ex nihilo is because it uses the phrase "ex ouk onton" which in the much later Christian apologetics in the late second century was a technical term of "art" signifying ex nihilo. The context is a mother speaking to her son, not a metaphysic philosopher addressing the learned. Rather than being a philosophical term for "art". The text is probably best read in the sense that an artist, who by impressing form on matter, causes things to exist which did not exist before. An artist creates something completely new by using preexisting materials. It does not express "absolute" non-existence, just they were made to exist after not existing. The pharase â??ouk ex ontonâ? is not something that is in opposition to creation ex materia. "Creation out of nothing" does not equate to "creation out of absolutely nothing. The words used by Hermas did not originally mean creation ex nihilo. This meaning was later ascribed to them.

In fairness to the Catholic Church, the passages cannot be said to espouse Creation ex Materia, only they are not necessarily espousing Creation ex Nihilo. It was not evident in writers before Tatian and Theophilus and into its full form in Irenaeus. It my understanding that the Catholic Church doesn't stand on these passages as proof texts, but as "seeds" that future growth and development of the doctrine. I think was pushed in response to Gnostics because it was important to preserve creation in the hands of the one true God rather than through various demiurge, etc. The idea that God can create from absolutely nothing is a strong witness to His omnipotence and I think this was also a motivating factor for this development, but you must confess that it makes some serious problems by its acceptance. Issue of God's responcibility for evil being one, by which you are forced to defend claims of an absolute omnipotent creater of absolutely all things (evil), all the while an absolutely good God (who creates evil and is omniresponcible for all evil, there is not free will, the devil and evil men were created evil). Some of these solutions were good but were not great.

[Rommelator]

Ex nihilo creation cannot be found in the Bible, no matter how hard you look.

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/revi...um=2&id=590

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Right, Irenaeus, who was the one who formulated the doctrine of ex nihilo, did not get it from the Bible because, he did not know of any verse within the Bible that supported the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, because it doesn't.

The doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is consistent with what the Bible reveals.

The words used by Hermas did not originally mean creation ex nihilo. This meaning was later ascribed to them.

Clearly Hermas used the word "nothing", see below

• Hermas "First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing." Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20
  
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• Hermas "And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, 'Hail, Hermas!' And looking up to her, I said, 'Lady, what doest thou here? 'And she answered me, 'I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.' 'Lady,' said I, 'are you to be the subject of my accusation?' 'No,' said she; 'but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me." Shepard,1:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:9
  

In fairness to the Catholic Church, the passages cannot be said to espouse Creation ex Materia, only they are not necessarily espousing Creation ex Nihilo. It was not evident in writers before Tatian and Theophilus and into its full form in Irenaeus.

It is evident that writers like Tertullian believed all elements, spirits were brought forth from nothing and Irenaeus beleived that God called into the substance of His creation when previously it had not existence.

• Tertullian "The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding word, His arranging wisdom, His mighty power, brought forth from nothing this entire mass of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty; whence also the Greeks have bestowed on it the name of Cosmos." Apology,17:1(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:31
  
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• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  

It my understanding that the Catholic Church doesn't stand on these passages as proof texts, but as "seeds" that future growth and development of the doctrine.

The Catholic Church teaches:

297 Scripture bears witness to faith in creation "out of nothing" as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.

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338 Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God's word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history are rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun.

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296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance. God creates freely "out of nothing": If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.

[Rommelator]

The doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is consistent with what the Bible reveals.

Evidence, please. Show me anywhere in the Bible that supports ex nihilo.

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/revi...um=2&id=590

[johnny]

Rommelator

Ex nihilo creation cannot be found in the Bible, no matter how hard you look.

Catholics are not Bible only ... Ex nihilo creation is consistent with the Bible.

[Rommelator]

Ex nihilo creation is consistent with the Bible.

Where?

Catholics are not Bible only

Neither are LDS. We aren't Catholic Catechisms either.

[johnny]

Rommelator

Where.

Genesis 1:1

[Rommelator]

Rommelator

Genesis 1:1

Nope.

Try again.

[johnny]

Rommelator

Nope.

Please explain how Genesis 1:1 not consistent with Ex nihilo

[Rommelator]

Rommelator

Please explain how Genesis 1:1 not consistent with Ex nihilo

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets.

The verb "bara" does not mean to create the way Ex nihilo proponents would like it to mean; i.e. out of nothing.

John Tvedtnes writes:

In his King Follett discourse, Joseph Smith said,

You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "Don't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. How, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize--the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed: they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end. (Journal of Discourses 6:6)

Other Latter-day Saint scholars have thoroughly discussed Joseph Smith's teachings about the eternity of matter, so I shall not go into that subject here.38 It is the Hebrew term rendered "created" in the KJV and "organized" by Joseph Smith in the King Follett discourse and Abraham 4:1-3. He declared that "Baurau signified to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God" (Journal of Discourses 6:5).

Joseph Smith's critics claim that the Hebrew verb arb (b?r?')39 is used only of acts of God because only God can really create something out of nothing. This verb is used in reference to God's creative activity in nine Old Testament passages, including five instances in the Genesis account of creation.40 In nine other passages, it refers to other miracles performed by God.41 Contrary to what the critics have said, it is sometimes used in reference to the acts of human beings. See, for example, Joshua 17:15; 17:18 (where the KJV renders it "cut down," in reference to wood, perhaps for building purposes), 1 Samuel 2:29 (KJV "make yourselves fat"), Ezekiel 21:19 (twice rendered "choose" in KJV), and Ezekiel 23:47 (KJV "dispatch"). The reading of the Hebrew text of 1 Samuel 2:29 has been challenged and other readings proposed, but it is interesting that the verb here appears just before tyvarm (m?-r?'sh?t, "from the beginning of"), rendered "with the chiefest" in KJV. This is the same word that appears as tyvarb (ber?'

[johnny]

Rommelator

John Tvedtnes writes:

Other's write,

Creation

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm

The most explicit Scriptural statement respecting the created origin of the universe is found in the first verse of Genesis : "In the beginning God created heaven and earthy". The objects here designated evidently comprise the material universe; whether the originative act is to be understood as specifically creative, depends upon the meaning of the Hebrew verb bara. On this point the following interpretations by unimpeachable authority may be adduced. Gesenius says: "The use of this verb [bara] in Kal, the conjugation here employed, is entirely different from its primary signification (to cut, shape, fashion); it sign ifies rather the new production of a thing than the shaping or elaborating of the pre-existing material.

That the first verse of Genesis teaches that the original creation of the world in its rude and chaotic state was from nothing while the remaining part of the chapter teaches the elaboration and distribution of the matter thus created, the connection of the whole section shows sufficiently clearly" (Thesaurus, p. 357 b ) . M

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Genesis doesn't account the creation of the pre-existing chaotic waters nor the bene elohim.

Edit: Sorry for jumping in on Rommelator's posting, and sorry I posted this so late as to confuse at who's post I'm responding to.

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Genesis doesn't acount the creation of the pre-existing chaotic waters nor the bene elohim.

Thanks for making my point ... Genesis is consistent with Ex Nihilo ...

[Rommelator]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Thanks for making my point ... Genesis is consistent with Ex Nihilo ...

No, you are completely misunderstand the Hebrew text.

It does not say that the chaotic matter was created. The chaotic matter was already there.

Show me where it says that the chaotic matter (or water in verse 2) was created out of nothing?

And no, ex nihilo is not consistent with Genesis 1:1.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Except that the chaotic waters and bene elohim existed before the creation of Genesis, and doesn't account for their creation. Thus there is pre-existing material and beings before the creation began.

[Rommelator]

Rommelator

Other's write,

Creation

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm

The most explicit Scriptural statement respecting the created origin of the universe is found in the first verse of Genesis : "In the beginning God created heaven and earthy". The objects here designated evidently comprise the material universe; whether the originative act is to be understood as specifically creative, depends upon the meaning of the Hebrew verb bara. On this point the following interpretations by unimpeachable authority may be adduced. Gesenius says: "The use of this verb [bara] in Kal, the conjugation here employed, is entirely different from its primary signification (to cut, shape, fashion); it sign ifies rather the new production of a thing than the shaping or elaborating of the pre-existing material.

That the first verse of Genesis teaches that the original creation of the world in its rude and chaotic state was from nothing while the remaining part of the chapter teaches the elaboration and distribution of the matter thus created, the connection of the whole section shows sufficiently clearly" (Thesaurus, p. 357 b ) . M

[johnny]

Rommelator

It does not say that the chaotic matter was created. The chaotic matter was already there.

Which verse reveals "chaotic matter was already there"?

And no, ex nihilo is not consistent with Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:1 does not reveal pre-existing matter ... Genesis 1:1 is consistent with ex nihilo.

[Rommelator]

Which verse reveals "chaotic matter was already there"?

Verse 2

Genesis 1:1 is consistent with ex nihilo.

You keep telling yourself that, johnny.

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Except that the chaotic waters and bene elohim existed before the creation of Genesis, and doesn't account for their creation. Thus there is pre-existing material and beings before the creation began.

Do you know of any Bible verses that support that "the chaotic waters and bene elohim existed before the creation of Genesis"?

Do you know of any Bible verses that support that "pre-existing material and beings before the creation began"?

[Rommelator]

Do you know of any Bible verses that support that "the chaotic waters and bene elohim existed before the creation of Genesis"?

Do you know of any Bible verses that support that "pre-existing material and beings before the creation began"?

2 Peter 3:5—6

From Blake Ostler: http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/revi...um=2&id=590

Several New Testament passages are cited by Copan and Craig that supposedly support creation out of nothing. Their treatment of 2 Peter 3:5 is typical of the way they force the text with assumptions contrary to the text throughout their book (see The New Mormon Challenge [NMC], p. 427 n. 136, and CON, pp. 87—91). Second Peter 3:5—6 presents a New Testament text that clearly refers back to an Old Testament teaching that God created the heaven and the earth by organizing preexistent chaos. Genesis 1:1—2 states: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2 King James Version [KJV]). The waters represented the primordial chaos already present when God created the earth in Genesis 1:2 (and there is no indication in the text that the waters are ever created). In fact, the scripture in 2 Peter seems to have been directed to people like Copan and Craig: "They [sarcastic scoffers] deliberately ignore the fact that long ago there were the heavens and the earth, formed out of water and through water by the Word of God, and that it was through these same factors that the world of those days was destroyed by the floodwaters" (2 Peter 3:5—6 New Jerusalem Bible [NJB]). This text rather clearly teaches the creation of heaven and earth by verbal fiat out of waters that existed before the heavens and the earth and that this preexisting chaos eventually provided the water for the great flood. In essence, the flood represents a return of the world to chaos because the people that God had created had not obeyed his commands.[4]

There are five crucial points in 2 Peter 3:5 that support the view that the author of this scriptural passage believed that everything was organized from a preexisting chaos. First, the text addresses the formation of "heaven and earth," or all that is said to be created by God in Genesis 1:1—2. Indeed, the parallel with Genesis 1:1 is unmistakable and clearly signifies that 2 Peter speaks of the same creation spoken of there. Second, the heaven and earth are said in 2 Peter 3:5 to be formed 'εξ υδατος και δι ' υδατος (ex hydatos kai di hydatos), both "out of water" and also "through water." The double reference to water as the material substrate used in creation "out of" and "from" which the heaven and earth are formed appears to be an intentional emphasis. Third, the fact that we are dealing with the entire scope of creation is indicated by reference to God's Word as the power by which the heaven and earth are formed from water?τω του θεου λογω (tō tou theou logō). The text is referring to Genesis 1:1—2, which states that God spoke and heaven and earth were created, and also to John 1:1, which mentions that God creates all that there is by the power of his Word. Fourth, the heaven and earth are formed from water, which is recognized in the very next verse as the principle of chaos causing the flood or the deep in Genesis 1:2. The earth was created from water, and it was destroyed by water through the flood because water represents the unformed and chaotic—the deep that is never said to be created in the Genesis account of creation but is presented as already present at the time God undertakes to create the heaven and the earth. Fifth, the verb used in 2 Peter 3:5, συνεστωσα (synestōsa), is a form of the verb συνιστημι (synist